EPISODE 30: CO-LEADERSHIP: A NEW DIVISION OF LABOR

Mary Morten:  Hi, everyone, and welcome back to “Gathering Ground.” I'm Mary Morten, your host and president of Morten Group, LLC, a Chicago-based national consulting firm. 

Something I often discuss with the leaders I coach as a part of our work at Morten Group is executive isolation, an all too common occurrence. In fact, according to a survey administered by CompassPoint and the Myers Foundation, 70 percent of the 3,000 nonprofit executives surveyed reported feelings of isolation, with 67 percent anticipating an exit in five years or less. It's no wonder why, with collaboration and community being at the top of mind in several professional sectors, that co-leadership is something we're seeing more often. From tech companies to foundations to nonprofits, pairs and even trios of people are leading organizations together. The ability to share some of the tangible and emotional work of being an executive director or CEO can be invaluable, not to mention presenting an opportunity to create a more realistic division of labor at the top level. However, teams making this transition must remember that the same pitfalls exist, as do with any business relationship: power struggles, unclear responsibilities, and ineffective communication to name a few. When it's done thoughtfully and intentionally, transitioning into a co-leadership model can be incredibly successful, as evidenced by today's guests.

Today on “Gathering Ground,” I am thrilled to welcome leaders from three very different, very distinct organizations whose co-leadership models have helped their organizations become even stronger. So please welcome to “Gathering Ground” Sean Thomas-Breitfeld, who is co-director of the Building Movement Project, Kate Roosevelt and Julia McGuire, co-presidents of Campbell & Company, and Jenny Arwade and Raul Botello, co-executive directors of Communities United.

Welcome to “Gathering Ground,” everyone. So happy you're here. 

So we are going to start, as we do with “Gathering Ground,” by just getting a little bit of your background. Before we start to talk about some of your professional life, how did you get to your organizations? Just a little bit about your story so that our listeners have some context? So Sean, let's start with you. And we want to mention at the outset that your do-director, Frances Kunreuther, could not be with us today, but we are wishing her well and hoping that she's staying warm on the East Coast.

So welcome back. This is Sean's third appearance on “Gathering Ground,” so some of our listeners are very familiar with his work. Sean, tell us a little bit about how you got to the Building Movement Project.

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: Yeah, thanks for having me again. Great to connect. I often say that part of my path is the fact that I'm a pastor's kid. In fact, both of my parents are ministers. So I had a stint in — well, I studied social work in college and I had a stint in direct services and I had a stint as a policy analyst, and I had a stint as an organizer. So, you know, I just was moving around the sector, and then had the opportunity to land at the Building Movement Project as co-director, where I have been for now going on nine years.

Mary Morten:  Time flies. (Laughs.)

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: It does.

Mary Morten: Thank you so much.

Jenny, let's hear from you and Raul. How did you get to your current roles at Communities United?

Jenny Arwade: Great. Thanks so much, Mary, and — so everyone, I'm Jenny Arwade, co-director with Communities United, she/her/hers. And it's so interesting that you started with the theme of isolation because that's actually what brought me into this work. So growing up, I grew up in New York City, my father was an immigrant, a cab driver, a fruit vendor on the streets of New York, and as a child, just experiencing lots of injustice as a family, it always felt very isolating. And being on our own it just felt like, you know, you just have to accept the circumstances that are dealt to you. And so when I came into community organizing after graduating from Princeton, you know, I was really centered on the role of communities, right, and charting our own course for change. And it's the exact opposite of isolation, right? You get to knock on doors, co-create with people you've never met, so I fell in love with it from the beginning, and have been there 20 years with Raul, who I'll pass it to.

Mary Morten: OK, Raul, take it away.

Raul Botello: (Laughs.) Thank you, Mary, for this invite. Yeah, you know, my journey began in a small town in Mexico. My parents — my dad was a migrant worker and he had this dream of bringing all his kids and eventually raised enough money to pull together and, you know, bring us. And for a long time, I did not realize why I ended up in organizing. I used to work corporate while working college, and people would ask me, how did you end up here? And I would always point to maybe a pastor talked to me about liberation theology. I couldn't pinpoint my Catholic values. I really couldn't point to what — I think that's what I said at that time. About seven years ago, we switched our motto and, you know, thanks to you, we switched our name, and part of that journey was, how do folks tell their narrative? And as I explore that, I realized that part of the reason I ended up in this unlikely position of going back, when I told my mom that I was leaving corporate and coming to do an $18,000, you know, paying job, she was like, we came to this country to what? But I think my separate — I got separated at the border with my mom and I never told that story, because my job as an organizer was to always uncover the stories of others. But the more I explore that, through that name, you know, when we changed our name from Albany Park to Communities United, we started talking about how do folks in the community tell a narrative that is not just about survivorship but empowerment? And that's kind of when I started exploring of, like, why did I end up here, and I realized that it was that separation at the border for a couple of years that I didn't — my mom made it, I did not make it, so I had to be waiting in Mexico for a couple of years before I got reunited with her.

Mary Morten: All right. Thank you. I mean, you know, we worked together for several years; I didn't know that was part of your story. Thank you.

And, Kate, tell us about your journey.

Kate Roosevelt: Thank you, Mary, and thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this conversation today with you and Sean and Raul and Jenny. I'm Kate Roosevelt, and my journey really starts at home and being raised in a household that had a very strong ethic around service and engaging with the community. I can remember like it was yesterday my mom sitting at the kitchen table after dinner making calls to raise money for Planned Parenthood and my dad working in an environmental organization focused on ocean conservation, which back in the ’70s was, you know, something that we were just beginning to think and talk about. Fast forward to my early 20s, I moved to Seattle, Washington, and entered a master of public administration program and for the first time really came to understand that I could put my values to work and actually do values-informed work in the nonprofit sector and that was a real epiphany for me, and I went to work first at the University of Washington in the leadership and management training program and then worked in the environmental sector. And as with many things in life, I found the consulting world through relationships and a friend who referred me to the first firm that I worked with in Seattle called Collins Group that then became a part of Campbell & Company eight years ago. So I started my consulting journey almost 22 years ago and I really have never looked back, and it's just been an amazing opportunity to walk alongside people as they are looking to do big, hard things in the world and ultimately to make the world a more just and equitable place. So it's been a huge privilege and honor to do this work.

Mary Morten:  Wonderful. Thank you so much.

And Julia, let's hear your story.

Julia McGuire: Thank you. So I started in fundraising, actually, in college when I was in Mexico working for a school called — (Spanish name). And I did my first fundraising event there by organizing a basketball game and charging a fee for people to enter, and we raised $2,000 in U.S. dollars and got electricity and running water for the school, and that was the bug that I got, was being able to bring people together, have fun and make a difference. So when I finished college, I started at Rotary International, helped with the Polio Plus program for a few years, I went back to my alma mater, Loyola University Chicago, I went to Ronald McDonald House Charities Global, and I went to Boys & Girls Clubs of America. Campbell & Company had been our consultant at Ronald McDonald House Charities Global, and when I was ready to make a move again, they asked if I'd come and work for them. So that was 21 years ago, and I'm still there loving the difference that we can make, loving the people that I work with both as colleagues and the clients that I get to work with. And the best part is, from those first days at Rotary International, two of the people I worked with then have been clients in the last two years, so I keep relationships for a long time. And I was lucky enough, when we moved to California for my husband's job, to continue to work for Campbell & Company there, and I was lucky enough to come back as we started looking at succession planning and returned to Chicago, my hometown, and continue to work for the same company.

Mary Morten:  Wow, what great stories you all have. And I love knowing that we went to the same college. That's wonderful.

So that's very helpful to set some context for your background. And now we want to hear a little bit about your organization. So we intentionally really wanted to have a for-profit organization — like Morten Group does consulting, fundraising, and, you know, strategic planning, those kinds of things — and then we also wanted to have nonprofits. And also, you know, while Building Movement Project is a nonprofit, I think of it often as kind of a think tank in many ways. I mean, you do research, you really do very important research that we've used many times, so why don't you start, Sean, by just giving our listeners a little bit of what you're doing? We will wait to talk about what's coming down the road, but just give people some context for your work. And then we'll move into talking about the co-leadership model.

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: Sure. So BMP is a national project that focuses on supporting but also pushing the nonprofit sector to be more focused on progressive social chang, social justice, issues and practices, and so we do do a lot of research. Particularly right now, a lot of our research, for last several years, has focused on issues of recent leadership in the sector, but we also have done research and documentation around movement building and how organizations collaborate, work together to have more impact, instead of being stuck in organizational or issue silos, and we also look at how direct service organizations can do social change, social justice work by lifting up and listening to the voice of their constituents and community. So a lot of that work is a mix of listening to folks on the ground, identifying lessons of practices that work, and doing training and documentation to make the case to the field to move in these more progressive directions.

Mary Morten: Wonderful.

And Julia, can you just give us the sort of elevator pitch on Campbell & Company?

Julia McGuire: Yes. We are a consulting firm to not-for-profits and we have been around for 40-plus years, based in Chicago. Now, since we couldn't beat Collins Group in the Northwest, we decided to merge with Collins Group and collaborate in that way. But we have — we are an employee-owned organization, so we're an ESOP, which means everyone in our firm is an owner in our firm, which is really important to the work that we do. We are across the country, we have people in Boston, D.C., Seattle, Chicago, L.A., as well as a few other folks scattered, given the way we can all work remotely today. We have four major service lines; we work on fundraising that includes strategic planning, communications, strategic information services or data, the data magic, and then we also have executive search.

Mary Morten: Wonderful. Thank you.

And Raul, let's hear a little bit about what Communities United is doing.

Raul Botello: So Communities United is a grassroots organization that is led by survivors in communities, in five communities in Chicago, and we work on — we're known for working with young people and youth organizing. And the movement to, you know, remove police from schools is one of the issues we've been tackling now for the past, you know, 12 years and we've had some major successes over the last couple of years. But we also look at, you know, entrenched structural racism within, like, our communities and around policy and research. So we have a lot of partners with — right now one of our big partnerships is with Lurie Children's Hospital and how do we move big institutions like hospitals to learn from community organizations in — or how we engage directly to kind of move the needle collectively. And so that's kind of who we are. We're a membership-based organization and it's super exciting because, during this time, you know, being on the ground is really, really empowering for our members and our staff as well.

Mary Morten: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Yes, lots of successes, lots of legislation, lots of movement work. That really was not just a moment but, you know, continued on, which has been wonderful to see in Chicago.

Jenny, we're going to just talk a little bit about the pandemic, which we're still in. What is one thing you've learned about yourself as we've navigated these waters?

Jenny Arwade: Yeah, that's a great question. I think — one thing I think I've learned about myself is just what it really takes to sustain balance in my life over time, (because we ?) think that, you know, over the years, I've had many great moments of balance — (laughs) — to your point, but sustaining that is really challenging. And the pandemic, I mean, it hit us all so hard, on top of all of the uprisings and the continued police violence, and just the really horrendous conditions our communities have been facing, so really out of mere survival and, you know, just having to really have that wake-up call about how to even in the most intense conditions to be able to keep balanced and to be able to, you know, continue to bring joy on a daily basis, right, even in the toughest circumstances. And that's been important for our team at Communities United as well.

Mary Morten:  Absolutely, continuing to find joy. Absolutely.

And Kate, what have you learned, or what's become clear during this time?

Kate Roosevelt: Oh, boy, Mary, I've learned a lot about myself and I think also about the role that I play as a consultant in the world, either perpetuating systems that have held people back for many, many decades and centuries, or using philanthropy for good. And I think one of my major learnings, I just think of it almost as like a switch that flipped in my brain during the summer of 2020, following the murder of George Floyd, was moving my mindset from using philanthropy as a force for good to examining the structures that exist within philanthropy that are actually preventing more positive change from happening. And that, you know, is kind of a subtle thing but it was kind of a profound moment for me to sort of step back and say, how do I actually help people shift the way that they engage with philanthropy and use philanthropy to make positive change in the world and to, you know, advance equity and justice for all sorts of people that our clients work with, whether they're trying to get fed, trying to get housed, trying to participate in the arts, trying to figure out how to rescue their front-line community that has been poisoned by, you know, environmental, terrible environmental injustices, so that was a big one for me — subtle but really kind of big. And I think it's informing how we're thinking about our business and our leadership going forward and really the obligation that I think we feel we have to be consultants that are asking really hard questions alongside our clients and helping to develop solutions.

Mary Morten: Thank you. Thank you.

Sean, what about you?

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: I'm not sure. (Laughs.) You know, I think that it's been a very unsettling few years and I would like to sort of be confident about having learned new things about myself or new skills, and really what I've just done is, like, nose to the grindstone and just hustle, you know? So, you know, I think in response to some of the — what I think others were sharing about how difficult this time has been for our communities and for organizations and as a leader of an organization that’s sort of in that intermediary space, the feeling of responsibility to be in solidarity and in service of organizations that were certainly struggling much more than BMP was. And, you know, I think that the pandemic and, you know, I think the response to police violence and the uprisings was also just saddening — I don't know how else to describe — you know, I think that there's just a level of fatigue and sadness that has also, I think, crept in. So I wish I had a more uplifting response — (laughs) — about what I’ve learned since January 2020, but —

Mary Morten:  Yes. Yeah. It's the reality. I mean, most of us thought when we, you know, had to shelter in place in March that it was going to be for a couple of weeks, right? It was just going to be for a couple of weeks, and then we'll get back to normal, right? And we really don't want to go back to normal, because normal was not good for so many of us and so many — the, you know — so many of us, period, I will say.

Julia, what comes to mind for you?

Julia McGuire: You know, prioritization and I really — Jenny, what you said about balance is really important. It's interesting that my daughter, who was 12 when it all started and is now 14, has said to me she misses that time we had together when everything was slower and we were home when we thought it was just a couple weeks. And so trying to take that piece of that and remembering those moments and not just get caught up and OK, let’s start moving fast again, as the doors open and face-to-face visits and all of that comes. Are we going to continue to be thoughtful and take our time and take care of the balance that is really important? And we've advocated for it as leaders, I think, in our firm; we've really thought about ensuring our staff had flexibility, took care of themselves, that we have to model that as well. And it was about the pandemic, it was about the feelings of the uprisings, the protests, the George Floyd murder, the AAPI hate that occurred, and making sure that our colleagues who were more deeply impacted by that knew that they had support for whatever they needed during that time and whatever time they needed to maybe step away or slow down. So we're just — I want to make sure we don't lose that moving forward.

Mary Morten:  Raul, what have you learned? Or what did you come to understand?

Raul Botello: Yeah. No, just listening to Julia, I remembered our daughter. You know, as we're preparing, I was like, you know, these are the things that you have to do. You know, we're in a critical moment here in the country but all over the world in how we're connected to each other, and she just came to us and said — I said, well, what would you like to do when you grew up, and she goes, definitely don't want to do what you guys are doing; you guys have worked way too hard. And, you know, it was it was it was kind of eye-opening, but, you know, this addiction to the pace at which we live and we work into — you know, that is really what I learned, and that we kind of are in a system that we're in it, that someone else is going to teach us how to be better human beings in terms of our own ethics of what we value and then realize that, you know, in this moment, it really took folks that had nothing to show how they're stepping up in terms of bringing food to our tables, and so for me, I think, just learned of, like, we have to lead in modeling what is healthy working environments, is the first. And the second thing that I learned is, like, I've always known — you know, when we went through the name change, I've always known that narrative — you know, change narrative. Movement is important. But during this time, it became so crystal clear that the power that narrative change has to really compete against other forms of change is so crucial, and such that someone's going to leave that and if we don't leave that, then — you know, that — other narratives are going to dominate and overstep all the change that we want to, you know, have happen. So those are the two things that became crystal clear, both one on the home life and one on the public life.

Mary Morten: Thank you so much, agree with all of that.

So all of you are involved in co-leadership models, and we want to talk about how that came to be. I'm going to start with Julia and Kate, because this is new for Campbell & Company; you moved to a co-leadership model last year. What led you to think this might be the way to go, as opposed to a single-leader model? And who would like to start?

Kate, you want to start?

Kate Roosevelt: I'd be happy to start. And yes, Mary, these are early days. We’re what, Julia, in I think our four[th] month of this partnership that we are crystallizing. I think one of the things that has made this work so well for us is that we had eight years of experience working together, building trust, already, you know, navigating some difficult moments in our business, our personal lives, you know, the communities in which we live, the people with which we work. And for us, you know, the journey really started, believe it or not, before the pandemic. In 2019 we started to engage with our then-president and CEO in a discussion around succession planning and just beginning to imagine what it would look like to put, you know, a process into place that would make more room at the table for more people in the firm to help to lead and direct the firm going forward. Well, needless to say, in the spring of 2020, that exercise was put on hold — (laughs) — and we kind of moved into survival mode. As a professional services firm working with nonprofit organizations, many of our clients were really terribly affected by the pandemic, and in all sorts of ways. And it wasn't until just about a year ago that we resumed the discussions and the planning and arrived at, at least an initial idea that yes, we wanted to put a leadership succession plan into place and we engaged with a wonderful consultant who helped us to explore a variety of models. And he had worked with a couple of other family businesses and small businesses, navigating similar transitions and said, you know, you don't hear a lot about this, but I've seen co-presidency models work really well with people that have very complementary skills and strengths and areas of interest, that have, you know, a business that is really rooted in this notion of sort of shared leadership and inclusive leadership and with people that are, you know, looking to make a difference and recognizing that there's more that they can do together than they can actually do alone. And, you know, I scoured the internet and looked for all sorts of Harvard Business Review articles — there's nothing, hardly anything that's out there. (Laughs.) Maybe a book will come out of this session, Mary, who knows, but there's not a lot that's been really written, you know, or researched about these models, because they're, you know, they're still, I think, considered nontraditional and fairly experimental. So that's the that's the long story that got us to September of last year when we crystallized this, and there was a lot of work that went into it in terms — one of the things we had to do, and you mentioned this earlier, was to get really clear about how we were going to divide and define our roles, not only so that we wouldn't get in each other's way, but that it was really clear to our team, sort of, you know, who's responsible, who's accountable, who's leading the charge. And, you know, we can talk more about that, if you wish, but once we kind of pulled the curtain back and shared the news with the team, we just kept going and it's been a pretty wonderful first couple of months and has also set into motion a whole bunch of other sort of changes and new ways of thinking across the firm. I talked with Julie and I talk about it as sort of like this opening up of possibility, ideas, more people feeling like they have the ability to influence the direction of our firm and the kinds of services that we're going to provide and the people that we're going to work with, and just a lot more seats at the table for people to be working in partnership with us to to make make the path forward.

Mary Morten:  Wonderful.

And Julia, were you on board with this idea? Did you immediately think yes, this could work? Did it make sense to you?

Julia McGuire: I don't think either Kate or I was an immediate yes, for either of us, when the consultant brought it up to us. It was like, wait, wait, what? But, you know, Kate and I are both willing to experiment and look at things a different way. What I like and is really important is that Kate and I had — we knew we had shared values; we knew we had a shared vision for where we wanted to go. Now, whether we wanted to go, you know, on the back roads or on the highway is where we have really good — we call it vigorous fellowship, right? — around that. But so how we get there we love to discuss and learn from each other. But that shared vision, the trust, just knowing that we have each other's back and that we wanted to get to the same place, we said, let's give it a shot, let's see what this looks like, and as Kate said, it's been really exciting. And having eight years of working together in very similar roles and supporting each other in those roles, because we come at them from different perspectives, has been really, really powerful. So it's been exciting, but it was not a natural, like, “oh, that's a great idea” kind of moment.

Mary Morten: Yeah, I think this is the moment, though — I think, certainly for myself, as a result of being in the pandemic, just thinking about ideas and possibilities that maybe you thought, should we try this and kind of thinking, why not, right? Why not?

Sean, you came to Building Movement Project and Frances was already the director. How did you make that turn to becoming co-directors?

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: Yeah. So Frances founded BMP about 20 years ago and, you know, had built the organization over that organization’s first decade, and I think because BMP sort of comes out of and is in service to social change organizations, the idea of shared leadership was not maybe as challenging or new. I think that there had been several community organizing groups that had embraced a shared leadership model, in part in response to both, you know, just sort of core organizational values, but also analysis of effectiveness as an organization, being able to be nimble, move quickly, make campaign decisions, those sorts of things. And so, actually, before Frances and I even started talking about me joining as co-director, BMP had done research on shared leadership and produced a report over a decade ago called Structuring Leadership that was about really digging into both alternative models for distributing power but also alternative models for decision making in organizational contexts, and most of the interviews for that report were with organizing groups. But I had been a part of the advisory board of BMP and I had known Frances for years. So there's a similar, like, long-standing relationship that I think you've heard from Kate and Julia. So there's a lot of trust, we understood in what ways (our ?) experiences would be complementary, and, you know, I think that that really was what made it both possible but also, I think, part of what made Francis think, oh, let me ask Sean — like, I don't think that she was — I don't think she would have put out a job description looking for a co-director. I think that she saw an opportunity to bring me into the organization in a different way than I had been involved as a member of the board.

Mary Morten: OK, that's very interesting that you talk about some of the models being in organizing. Hmm. We're going to talk to a group now — (laughs) — to a couple of folks who are organizers and lead an organizing group. And turns out they have a long-standing relationship. So I'm going — (laughs) — to come to Jenny and Raul.

You know, Raul, when you were talking you mentioned “our” daughter.

And Jenny, going to start with you: Tell us about how Communities United really was the foundation for the co-leadership, but give us some context for your relationship overall.

Jenny Arwade: Yeah, so Raul and I met — I think we started at our organization about two weeks apart in 2001, it would have been, and it was right when the organization was first starting. And, you know, we had rented — we got free space in an old convent building; everyone had their own office, but Raul and I were the only ones who were put in the same office to share, and we worked really well together and we ended up over time actually getting married, which I think Mary's alluding to. (Laughs.) So I think for us, it's just been kind of a beautiful, challenging but beautiful journey, right, over the last 20 years. The issues that we work around are always, you know, challenging but our board comes from the community; they’re active leaders, community grassroots leaders who are leading the work, and I think they saw how well we work together because we had been organizing together for a number of years before the founding director left. So for our organization, just like Sean mentioned, and in a community organizing context, the notion of co-leadership is a pretty natural one because we're always looking for how we can co-create with someone else, right., and our greatest joy comes in fostering the leadership of others in our communities and the young people we work with. So that's kind of where it began and it's worked well over the past now, I guess, 16 years or so.

Mary Morten:  Raul, do you want to add to that? Because you also started — you became — when did you take on the co-leadership model? Because for a while you were executive director, associate director. When did you move to the co-leadership model?

Raul Botello: We moved into the co-leadership around, I would say, 2006, 2007. And, you know, we don't recommend people to get married in the co-leadership model, right? That just an added — you know, when we talked about — our board just said, can you just become the co-director, and I was pretty happy where I was. I think the big — you know, the other challenge that just nonprofits and just the work environment that, you know, permeates in corporate America or nonprofit is this check on ego and your public profile, and, you know, for us we never had that. We've always deferred to nobody — either one of us [was] not necessarily like, oh, you should do this because you're better at that. It's always — it's very process-oriented, so when we — the board kept pushing me to become co-director even before I actually became the co-director, but I was pretty happy at where I was because we come at it very — from a perspective of collectively we could be better together than — that I don't need a title; that it's the work that really brings joy and rewards. And there’s so many ways the — you know, our approach to this work is really — you know, when — (laughs) — actually it was much harder to become a co-director than getting married. Getting married was like, oh, yeah, we're directors or co-director[s] — getting married, it's just another step to, like, doing what we already do well. But one thing became pretty obvious because I was talking to this older organizer; they organize during some bad times, the Alinsky model, which we got away with and pushed out many years before that, and he said, you know, being a — you already — all the elements that you do to run an organization as co-facilitators, co-directors, you're going to have a successful marriage because, in many ways, you're already doing all the basics of what you need to do in being successful in a partnership. So, I mean, it didn't start off like that. I had very, like, in the very — when I first met her I'm like, oh, there's this woman that’s coming from Manhattan, from New York City, which I don't like because New York gets all the credit that Chicago should get. So I would have a little bit of concerns — (laughter) — but it's been a joy. It's been a real joy. And the thing that we also —the additional thing that we noticed is that the complementary — her strengths are my weaknesses and my strengths are her challenges, and the duality of us talking through that and being honest about that, we honestly — those conversations come to, you know — obviously we're married, conversations never stop, so that's a challenge that we have faced. That's why our daughter doesn't want to become a co-director organizing; like, she doesn't want to work that hard. (Laughs.)

Mary Morten: (Laughs.) All right, that's great.

So let's talk a little bit about — we're going to take a quick break in just a moment, but I'd love to hear — and this is really opening up this to any of you — what are some of the successes that you've already noticed or experienced in this model? So I know that for Kate and Julia, it's been — has it been six months? Four months. And what are you noticing even at this early stage? Anything that you would point to as a success?

Julia McGuire: Yeah, well, I'll share a couple things, if that's OK, and I think one is just the ability to have a thought partner all the time has been really important and a benefit. We used each other that way often, but to have that in a more formalized way — as you mentioned, being at the top is lonely, and so to have that built in is really wonderful. We've really been able to speed up decision making. As Kate referenced earlier, we created more room at the table by modeling this collaborative partnership and so we now have a leadership council of our leaders in the firm and we bring things to that group, we have a conversation, and then the decision is made in much more significantly rapid fashion than we had been known for previously at our firm. But I'll share a rather dramatic example as well. We started this process, as Kate said, a year ago, and then in April, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, and to be able to not only hold my job but to be allowed to continue to do my job, to have a partner, to know that I wasn't holding the firm back, to know that decisions were moving forward, and then to be able to come out the other side, get some hair and be co-president — (laughs) — is really a powerful model for showing how you can take care of your employees and the company all at the same time. So that's a rather extreme example, but one that I'm pretty grateful for and proud of.

Mary Morten: But realistic and how you can take take care of yourself, right? So if we haven't learned anything, right, during this time during the pandemic is that, of course, self-care, which we talk about somewhat nonchalantly and we throw it around, is — it's real. It's real and it must happen, and that is an incredibly powerful example and I really appreciate you sharing it.

Sean, what would you say have been some of the challenges of being — doing a co-directorship?

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: Yeah, well, it's great to hear Julia talk about, like, decision making accelerating through the shared leadership model. I think that that absolutely can happen, and the opposite can also happen. And I think, even when it's a little — when we're a little slower and making decisions, I think that what is the added benefit is that we make better decisions, right, because, like, if we're slower at making decisions it’s because Frances and I are having differing views. And working through that disagreement, debating the ideas or the reasons we think different things is just really useful, and I know that that can sometimes make staff we supervise a little uncomfortable, like they're not sure how to feel about, like, the two people at the top of the hierarchy having differing views, but, you know, I do think that it's part of the — I hope that it becomes part of like the culture in more organizations. We can debate and have disagreement and, you know, it's — I think for me it's like that — those years as an organizer; like, debating campaign strategy was like constant, you know, and the fun part, oftentimes, of the job, so I don't shy away from that, but — and obviously, Frances doesn't either; she's a New Yorker. But, you know, I do recognize the ways that that can sometimes feel frustrating for staff, but I do have faith that it leads us to make better decisions as an organization.

Mary Morten: I absolutely agree. So we heard a couple of some of the, I would say, reasons why it works from Raul. What would you say is a challenge or success, Jenny, in terms of having this leadership model?

Jenny Arwade: Yeah, I would say, picking up on what Sean said: When we first became co-directors, I remember, a director of another organization was kind of horrified and she was just like, well, what are you going to do if you don't agree? Because it was very much like, well, what if you — basically, what if you lose an argument — (laughs) — and you don't get to do what you want to do? And it really struck me because it was from a very kind of individualistic perspective, which is the opposite of the culture that we really had been striving to build within the organization, and so I think, you know, one of the successes and challenges as a pair is that it does take a lot of patience, right, because you are continually working through things, and as Raul said, we each bring different assets and strengths and our own challenges to the work. But I think we've found, too, that it does result in, you know, both broader ownership within our organization, because we go through a process that also extends beyond ourselves, and that leads to what we believe are, you know, better, stronger decisions in the end. And I think, going back to the culture piece, too, Raul and I recently got a text from one of the mothers that we work with through our organizing and, you know, she just sent this really powerful reflection, and she was just like — her words were so powerful. She said, you know, I feel like I'm living my dream, because of, again, the culture of shared leadership organizationally in our communities, she was able to see the tremendous role that she played throughout the pandemic in helping to stabilize housing for other families and helping to change policies, you know, that folks were coming up to her, you know, recognizing, you know, the work that she had done. So I think that's also just a success of the broader culture building is that folks have the opportunity more broadly to see themselves in their leadership roles.

Mary Morten: Wonderful. And you mentioned culture, right, something that we're talking a lot about these days; we could do a whole nother podcast on that. However, we're going to take a brief break. And when we come back, we want to talk about what advice would you give to an organization considering a co-leadership model. You're listening to “Gathering Ground.” I'm Mary Morten, and we're back in a moment.

Hi, everyone, thanks so much for joining me on “Gathering Ground.” We want to hear from you. If you have any questions about your work in nonprofits or any of the topics that we've covered here on “Gathering Ground,” send them on in; send them to mary@gatheringgroundpodcast.com That's mary@ gatheringgroundpodcast — all one word — dot com. We look forward to hearing from you.

Welcome back to “Gathering Ground,” everyone. We are talking with leaders who have moved into a co-leadership model. We're talking with folks from Campbell & Company, from Communities United, and from Building Movement Project. And what we're going to do now is talk about the advice that you would give an organization that's thinking about a co-leadership model.

Why don't we start with Campbell & Company? What kind of advice, Kate, would you suggest? What kind of steps would you suggest that someone take if they're considering this model?

Kate Roosevelt: Well, I think, as Jenny and Raul have demonstrated, getting married is obviously step one. (Laughs.) But Julia and I are not going to do that. That's the spoiler alert from Campbell & Company. But in truth, I think we have learned a lot about what makes our partnership work, and what we would just encourage people to explore with their potential partners in this regard — I think as everyone has referred to and, you know, not a huge surprise but it is really worth, I think, underscoring that a co-presidency, co-director partnership really has to be based in a deep well of trust. I mean, you just have to be able to start from a place of trusting that your partner will challenge you, will also have your back, will step in for you, will, you know, ask hard questions. But I think that the trust thing is huge. And as Julia said, one of the things that made this easy for us to get our minds around is that we share so many values and goals, you know, personally and professionally, and professionally just about, like, why we do this work. You know, we come at it from different places and the reasons why we get out of bed every morning and do this are very similar.

I think the second thing, which Jenny and Raul and Sean talked about, is really — and our consultant was — like, this is the first thing he said to us is that if you're going to do this, you have to be very clear with each other up front how you are going to resolve your differences, come to agreement, and when you can't come to agreement, like, what's going to happen? You know, if you have an important decision to make, that as some people refer to as kind of below the waterline of your business, meaning that if you make the wrong decision, you know, the ship could sink. How are you going to make that decision? So we've talked a lot about that. Obviously, being clear about your relative roles and responsibilities is essential. And I think we're clear about that. And I think that at least, for the next year, we're going to have to talk with our colleagues about that on an ongoing basis, not only to ensure that the way we see things is working well for people but, if it's not, that we get that feedback loop and we can make adjustments along the way. And then I think just a credo that we try to live by is always assuming best intent, and that is for us, I think, a real cornerstone. So those are a couple things that I would encourage people to explore with their potential partners in this regard.

Mary Morten:  Sean, what would you say to an organization considering a co-leadership model?

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: I'd encourage the organization to consider what they're trying to address or solve by moving to a shared-leadership model, and the reason I would encourage an organization to pause is not because of, like, any warning but because I want to make sure that organizations are matching the structural intervention to the — whatever the sort of organizational issue is that they're trying to address, because I think there are a lot of benefits to shared leadership and I also think that it sort of feels like it's becoming, like, faddish. And so I'm seeing organizations sort of assume that, like, OK, we want to be current as an organization and so we're going to hire a co-director or we're going to hire two co-directors as the way to address the, you know, departure of an exiting leader. And, you know, I think that structural fix may not always be matched to what the organization is grappling with. And so that's why I would just encourage organizations to pause and think.

Mary Morten: OK, pause and think.

Raul, what would you suggest to an organization considering co-leadership?

Raul Botello: Just in terms of follow-up from what Sean said, I think understanding kind of where you are in the cycle of the organization, in terms of — I would say that succession planning is a key aspect of it. There's so many benefits out of the, you know, co-leadership model. In many ways, I really see the future of organizations’ response, right — like, I mean, you think of the pandemic; I think having confusion and leadership by, you know, the — there's just — the vetting of this critical decision making in the life of an organization is sometimes much, much more crucial than others, right, so it all depends on, like, the function of the organization's mission. But if it's — if it — you know, from my perspective, we're on the ground; if it's critical, where the lives of people are impacted based on decisions, you know, it should be considered because, you know, I think Sean mentioned earlier, decisions are just vetted thoughtfully, and you respond quicker, right? So those — just those two mechanisms by which to respond to critical needs is, I think, many ways — you know, my daughter was — she's being graded and the teacher has put her in a group setting with another student and some of the parents were complaining about that they're going to get graded based on the partnership. And we're like, that's perfect, co-leadership; like, that's the future of how we respond to things, that things are much more collectively, you know, vetted, and some parents were upset and I’m thinking, haven’t we learned anything from what happened in the last couple of years? So I think, to Sean's point, I think definitely should think about the life cycle of the organization, its mission. But, you know, this is, in many ways, I think the response that, you know, organizations need to base on, you know, their clients or, you know, who they're serving.

Mary Morten: Julia, what has been the response from your colleagues across various industries, other consulting firms? What's been the response to the announcement that was made several months ago about the co-leadership model?

Julia McGuire: Yeah, I think our colleagues in the firm, I think, again, it was a “why co-presidency?” And then as they saw Kate and I share the information, I think it made sense to them almost faster than it made sense to us when the consultant brought it because we had worked through so many pieces of it and, again, are very comfortable with that partnership. We were so pleasantly surprised — and I'll speak for myself, pleasantly surprised — (laughs) — about hearing from others in the industry about how much they really appreciated not only seeing the collaborative leadership model but seeing it with two women in particular, that seeing two women who could be with each other, support each other, lead together, and create room at the table for others just really seemed a very good model for the work that we're doing. So we're really happy to hear that.

Mary Morten: Wonderful.

And Jenny, what's been the reaction, or what was the reaction, as — I'm just going to say — funders, right, got to know the organization, realized that not only were you going to be co-leaders but that you were also married? What was the reaction? What kind of questions did you get?

Jenny Arwade: You know, it's funny because the first kind of group of folks we were worried about was our board; we were like, oh, my gosh, how are we going to tell our board that we're getting married? (Laughs.) So we went to them and I was so nervous about it; you know, this is like our strength/weakness thing. I was super nervous and Raul was, like, super cool about it. (Laughs.) But when we went in, because they had known us for so long, they were so excited. So I think that we were really pleasantly surprised kind of from that, getting over that first kind of piece of it. And then with funders, you know, we've been really pleasantly kind of greeted with open arms from our funders. So I think that we're very intentional about, just in general, relationships and so, you know, when we work with our funders, they really and truly are, you know, partners that we connect with on a regular basis to discuss and strategize around the work, and yeah, folks have seemed to really embrace co-leadership and also, you know, be very welcoming of both of us.

Mary Morten: That's really great to hear. I remember when we were working together, I have to say, I had no idea; I didn't know that you were married and it wasn't obvious to me at all, which I thought, you know, that's — it's working, OK. (Laughs.) So, you know, believe it or not, we are going to be closing shortly; the time goes so quickly and certainly we'd love to talk to you so much longer. However, what I want to end with is just talking a little bit about what you're looking forward to in 2022.

And I want to start with you, Sean. If you have not had an opportunity to check out Race to Lead — it is a report that we reference a lot in our work and certainly on this podcast — I want to suggest that you do that. And I think there may be some updates or some new information that you want to share, Sean?

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: Yeah. So last week we put out the latest report in the Race to Lead series and it focused on the data we collected from survey respondents who were themselves already the executive director of their organization, and we entitled the report “Trading Glass Ceilings for Glass Cliffs” because so much of what we heard in focus groups was leaders of color feeling like they had been hitting these glass ceilings as they were trying to move into executive leadership roles but then once they got to that top job — (laughs) — they felt like they were being pushed over this glass cliff, because oftentimes — the data actually bore this out, particularly for leaders of color who are taking over from a white predecessor — there are some different challenges that they end up facing around resistance to their leadership, funding, getting cut, things like that. So that is the latest report.

In terms of what else is coming, we are doing the Race to Lead survey again this spring/summer. We're trying to keep to a every-three-years cadence, so look out for emails from BMP and many of our partners like the Morten Group.

Mary Morten: Happy to share.

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: Fill out that survey. (Laughs.)

Mary Morten: Wonderful. Yes, that would be wonderful and I love that you continue to collect that data, because it'll be interesting to see, right, as we've moved through the pandemic, what has changed in terms of leadership, and really want to underscore your point about when organizations are bringing in their first person of color how often the person may not be set up for success and that that is really important to have the professional development. As you mentioned, sometimes funders want to wait and see. And so this is really good data and I want to encourage our listeners to check out Race to Lead.

Julia and Kate, I know that you have been on the DEIA journey — diversity, equity, inclusion, and access journey — for several years. Can you talk a little bit about some of those priorities, as well as anything else you'd like to share about what's coming up in 2022?

Kate Roosevelt: Yeah, and I think, you know, the thing we're most looking forward to is sort of just settling into this new way of being and leading and continuing to just make a lot of space for learning and listening.

The DEIA work that you reference to is has just gotten terrific traction over the last couple of years. And I would say that there are three really significant things that we're doing in 2022 to take that work even farther. Internally, we're taking a really deep look at compensation equity within our firm; it's a question that, you know, comes up a lot in performance reviews and the hiring process and all sorts of places. So we're working with a compensation consultant to do a top-to-bottom comprehensive review, benchmarking, and to come back to us with recommendations. We're also working on building out our learning and development plan for every single person in the organization, no matter what, you know, seat you're sitting in, and that work should be done in the next couple of months and then will lead to, I think, a whole host of amazing opportunities for Julia and me and our colleagues across the firm. And then we just are in the process of launching our first-ever, if you can believe it, employee resource group. So we have three groups that are getting up and running, one for BIPOC employees, one for LGBTQ employees, and one for caregivers and guardians, and there's just a lot of real positive response and energy around that.

I think externally — and I referred to this earlier — we are going to be doing a lot of deep work in thinking about how our methodologies, the way we go about doing our consulting work, can be more informed by DEIA practices. So just, you know, from — how we engage people in focus groups to developing case statements, approaching things from an asset-based mindset, how we think about the use of data and, you know, surveys and all sorts of things that we have just done, you know, for years, taking a fresh and deep look at that and also launching the second phase of our pro bono partnership program, Equity Partners, which is focused on bringing our services alongside smaller organizations that are led by people of color and working in the racial justice and racial equity space. So there's a lot on the table and we’re —

Mary Morten: A lot going on.

Kate Roosevelt: — super pumped, and it's going to be a great year. (Laughs.)

Mary Morten: It sounds very exciting, and I love the pro bono piece. We're doing our first sort of grant to a smaller nonprofit as well this year and taking them through the whole assessment and knowledge-building opportunity.

Kate Roosevelt: Fantastic.

Mary Morten: And we'll we'll start to help them write their action plan — again, smaller organizations that we've gotten, you know, larger over the years that it just doesn't make sense for them necessarily to work with us but we’re happy to be able to provide those services. We're working with a group in Chicago called Chicago Debates.

Kate Roosevelt: That's so great.

Mary Morten: So, Julia, what makes you hopeful about the work and the communities in which you work?

Julia McGuire: You know, what makes me hopeful is the people, people both within our firm — we've hired 20 new people in the in the past year to come on and help us think differently in our firm, work differently in our firm; they just bring so much thinking from different backgrounds, different spaces, different talents, some are data magicians, some are communication experts, some are coming from the front lines on fundraising — but also our partnerships with our clients. We're working with clients who are thinking differently, who are willing to approach their fundraising differently. So to work with someone doing a campaign study and ensuring that we're doing a community assessment of their client base at the same time and being able to embrace that together. So I just — that work just makes me so hopeful when the noise on social media and in other spaces of my life is not as uplifting. In this work you think that we really can make a difference, and I'm excited to be partnering with the people who are making a difference.

Mary Morten: Wonderful. That's that's very exciting.

And Raul and Jenny, what's on tap for Communities United? What would you like to share with us about your plans for 2022?

Raul, you want to start?

Raul Botello: Well, the plans for ’22 are as ambitious as ever. But I think we've definitely centered around this notion of, you know, when — (laughs) — I had this dream of possibly not working and being a husband that could stay at home and just, you know, do the chores. I was, like, pretty excited about putting that proposition in front of my partner. And then the pandemic happened and I realized that's the last place I want to work with — you know, like, I love people and I think our community has realized that, more than ever, we need each other — in-person, not through a screen — and so we really are looking forward to, you know, knock on wood, that we're moving things back slowly over to in-person community town halls. But this really breakthrough promise of our model — you know, Mary took us through one phase where we changed our name, because of the growth of the organization. And now the growth of the organization is to the point where we're going deep in terms of our healing, what we call healing through justice, which is how can our city and our members in our community, particularly communities of color, drive healing, that is not clinical, because the notion of America driving the clinical interventions is very clear — that is driven by institutions, you know, drug companies, or what have you — for us is really the opposite. How can we flip that? And how can we lead and push for community healing with the resources? And that's, you know, that's kind of our model that has been embraced, in many ways, by a number of hospitals. And so we're kind of looking at that as a breakthrough for 2022, with our survivors leading that work, so we're kind of super excited with that for this year. And we actually meet in person. (Laughs.)

Mary Morten: Yes, meeting in person. I know people are anxious to get back to that, and I am as well. And I would also say, isn't it amazing what we've accomplished while we've met virtually? Who would have thought — I mean, I don't — I mean, of course, you at Campbell & Company do executive searches, as we do, and we've done all of our executive searches virtually — I mean all over the country. In some cases, we facilitated the candidates meeting with our client partner without us being there because things change so quickly that we couldn't get to the location fast enough, really, to, you know, keep things moving. So I think it's one of those cases, where there's a will, there's definitely a way, right?

And, Jenny, what makes you hopeful about the year ahead?

Jenny Arwade: I think all the things that Raul laid out in terms of the work, and I think what makes me hopeful is just, you know, over the past couple of years and through, you know, our healing-through-justice approach, what we just hear over and over again is the purpose that we're able to find in this work, the purpose that we find in coming together to create change, the purpose that we are able to find in, you know, building these connections with others through our lived experience. It's healing to the point where it just fuels us, and it fuels our desire to connect with more and more people. And we hear that from our young people that when they're involved they just have this innate desire to get others involved, because they want them to experience the same thing. And then it's this beautiful ripple effect, and that can't help but make me hopeful because it's a beautiful process to see.

Mary Morten: So their compassion is absolutely contagious, right? They're excited and other people tap into that. That's wonderful. And as I often say, if I didn't believe that people fundamentally have the ability to change, I couldn't do this work either. I have to believe that I have to keep that in mind.

Some really great ideas and strategies to think about co-leadership, you know, whether it's trust — we often talk about our work, particularly around racial equity and diversity, equity and inclusion, moving forward at the speed of trust with our client partners, that we have to have trust; it's really important in your co-leadership model as well; shared values; what particular life cycle are you at in your organizational development, and taking a moment, as Sean said, to pause and think about this opportunity at this moment. Is it the right thing for you to do?

Really great ideas, wonderful strategies. It has been lovely having this opportunity to talk with all of you and we're going to do it again. I just had this feeling we're going to do this again. And I will look forward to that very, very much.

So you've been listening to “Gathering Ground.” We're going to have some resources from this conversation available on our website. And I'm Mary Morten. Until next time.