EPISODE 55: THE NEXT ACT: SUCCEEDING A LONG-TIME LEADER
Mary Morten: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of “Gathering Ground.” I'm Mary Morten, your host and president of Morten Group, LLC.
Leadership transitions can be a pivotal moment for any organization. The succession of a founder or long-time leader presents a unique blend of challenges and incredible opportunities. How do you honor the legacy of your predecessor while establishing your own vision? How long do you observe and listen before you start establishing that vision? How do you keep your stakeholders along for the ride?
I had the opportunity to delve into these complexities with a powerhouse panel. Joining me are leaders who have all navigated transitions just like this: Joe Hollendoner, CEO of the Los Angeles LGBT Center; Jose Muñoz, executive director of La Casa Norte; and Carol J. Sharp, president & CEO of The Night Ministry.
We had a conversation packed with insights on navigating leadership transitions, honoring past journeys while forging a new path, and preparing stakeholders for the exciting chapters ahead.
And Joe, I am going to get started with you. Briefly tell us about yourself and how you got to where you currently are in your organization. We want to know how long you’ve been at the organization, and how long was the leader that you succeeded there before you started?
Joe Hollendoner: Well, thanks so much, Mary, for having me. I’m excited to have this conversation. You know, I’ve been in social justice work for nearly 25 years. In fact, that’s how we met, doing some school-based advocacy on behalf of LGBT young people when I was a student in a very unsupportive high school. And, Mary, you and our friend Laura McAlpine were big champions of my efforts there, and since then have been working in a variety of different settings, including Howard Brown Health Center where I was part of the founding of the Broadway Youth Center, worked for AIDS Foundation Chicago, the Chicago Department of Public Health, but then was tucked away to San Francisco where I was the CEO of San Francisco AIDS Foundation, and ultimately landed here in Los Angeles as the CEO of the Los Angeles LGBT Center about three years ago. I follow in the footsteps of Lorri Jean, who was the CEO of this organization for 25 years. And something that’s really interesting about her succession is that we actually shared a year of overlap, which I look forward to telling you all the juicy details about.
Mary Morten: (Laughs.) OK. We will look forward to that!
And Carol, why don’t you tell us about your journey to The Night Ministry?
Carol J. Sharp: Absolutely. And thank you again, Mary, for the invitation to join you today. It certainly is an honor.
So I joined The Night Ministry about eight months ago. I’ve been in the nonprofit space for nearly 20 years and most of that work has been in support of young people who were first in their family to earn a college degree. And so we know, in order for a young person to thrive on a college campus, they need to have stability at home. And a lot of the work that I’ve done over the years, at organizations like the Chicago Scholars Foundation, I’ve worked at Perspectives Charter Schools, as well as Youth Guidance and Girls Inc. of Chicago – a lot of that work that I’ve done was really around mobilizing resources so that young people can sit in a classroom and thrive. And so I was fortunate to be able to join The Night Ministry and continue that great work providing stability in marginalized communities. I’ve taken over the reins of a CEO who was with our organization for a little over 20 years and we had a bit of a gap in our transition, and so I walked into the organization and have been challenged to really learn and lead and ensure that we are carrying on the great legacy that both of our previous CEOs set the foundation for at The Night Ministry. So I have a personal connection to The Night Ministry, the mission of human connection, as a Chicago native, and I’m just really grateful to be in this space.
Mary Morten: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
And Jose, please tell us about your journey, which we were, let me just say, in terms of full disclosure, certainly part of with regard to helping to place you at La Casa Norte.
Jose M. Muñoz: Well, Mary, first of all, thank you for having me here today and thank you for helping place me at La Casa Norte.
I’ve been in the civic sector for over 25 years. I’ve worked with several nonprofit organizations, including Casa Central, The Resurrection Project. I also did some work in government. Like Joe, I also spent some time in the city of Chicago, the Chicago Department of Public Health. I was a deputy commissioner there. I was a chief marketing officer for the state of Illinois and helped roll out the health insurance marketplace for the state. But the real reason that I’m at La Casa Norte has more to do with my personal journey and my personal story. I experienced homelessness as a young man, as a child, with my family, experienced it again as a young man. It took me about 10 years to get through college just because of the housing instability that I was facing. And for me, the mission of La Casa Norte is really – it just spoke to me and I knew that the minute that I learned about La Casa Norte and the work they were doing that this is the place I wanted to be. And that’s how I got here.
I succeeded the founding executive director for La Casa Norte who had been with the organization for 16 years. Anybody who knows her knows that she is a dynamite, had a great personality, a big smile, a visionary, and they were some very, very tough shoes to fill. (Laughs.)
Mary Morten: And that would be? Did you want to say her name? (Laughs.)
Jose M. Muñoz: Sol Flores. (Laughs.)
Mary Morten: Yes, Sol Flores. OK, great.
All right. Thank you all so much.
So let’s jump into some of the narratives that you might hear, you know, when you’re coming into a role that someone else has held for quite some time, and certainly, as a consulting group that is involved with executive search, we certainly have worked with organizations that have had these types of experiences, and it has to do with coming into an organization and having the tenure of less than a year. And so this is something that is not completely unusual. It did not happen in your cases. But we’d like to know, what are some of the challenges that you faced in your first year? And how did you address them, if you can just give us an example or two, and something that has to do with the fact that you’re coming in after someone who’s been in the role for such a long time?
And I’m going to come to you first, Carol.
Carol J. Sharp: Yeah. I think one of the challenges that I would highlight is really ensuring that our board of directors and our executive leadership team are able to bridge any gaps as it relates to trust, as it relates to how we are operating or function as an organization. I think it’s important – at least I learned very early on, it’s really important that we increase transparency in that onboarding phase because we’re new leaders in that role. And so we have many board of directors who have been with the organization in many capacities for many years. Our longest serving board of director – gosh, he’s been around for I think it’s nearly 40 years at this point, right, and so when you have someone who’s been here with the founder and then they’ve been through the tenure of a second CEO there, who’s been there for, you know, over 20 years, and I’m walking into the organization – they might have lots of questions around, what’s my vision and how do I plan to uphold the legacy of the organization? And so it all begins with building trust and increasing transparency and ensuring that our board of directors understand what their roles are moving into the next phase of our organization. So that’s something that we have prioritized, certainly in my first year, at the organization.
Mary Morten: Wonderful.
Jose, how did that play out for you?
Jose M. Muñoz: Well, let me start off by – I had an unusual start to my year. I started in February of 2020, so about six weeks before the pandemic happened, things started shutting down. We faced some very different challenges. And unfortunately, I didn’t get an overlap year with our executive director; I would have loved that. I think the hardest part was coming in and – you know, she was a very big personality, a big visionary, and I mentioned a lot of folks in the community knew who she was. And so stepping into the role, I made an intentional decision – I was like, I’m not going to be able to fill her shoes; I’m not filling her shoes. You know, I’m coming in with a different type of leadership style. I knew that I needed to work with partners and, because she was very public, be out and about and get to know as many people as possible and get in front of them and talk about my vision and why I was at La Casa Norte, to answer my “why.” Unfortunately, I didn’t get that chance because everything shut down and I was not able to meet with people in person. I had – you know, including my board. I had board members and folks that had been supporting the organization since its inception and there were some folks that I didn’t get to meet in person until about two years after I had started with the organization, and that was a very difficult challenge. But I did my best to try to make sure that I was constantly sending out messages, jumping in front of cameras, and sharing what I could about the organization and my vision and the work that we were doing.
Mary Morten: Wonderful.
You know, I forgot about that timing. You’re absolutely right. You came in and then everything essentially shut down, as you said. And that, I’m sure, as you’ve mentioned, is quite a challenge in terms of how you get to know people.
And Joe, I think you had some of that similar timing.
Joe Hollendoner: Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, my interview process was going on in the, you know, height of the pandemic and so I didn’t meet the board of directors until gosh, well after my start at the organization and so, in some ways, that whole process was different from what you would imagine. But I think the thing that was really helpful in setting me up for success and ensuring that I wasn’t one of the statistics of CEOs who, after the first year following a long-tenured CEO is shown the door or decides to leave, was how intentional the Center, including Lorri and the board, were about her retirement. And I think, you know, anyone who knows Lorri knows anything she does is with intention and success. And so when, you know, she finalized her last contract she made it clear to the board that after 10 years of this final contract she would be exiting, and so it was no secret and the board really readied itself for the next CEO and I think, in many ways, did something bold, which was allow for this year of overlap between the incoming and outgoing CEO. And I would say that, you know, I credit that so much to my success because what it enabled me to do is really learn the programs, meet with our staff, meet with our partners, and engage in the work in a different way than I would be forced to if I was, you know, just coming in as the CEO, you know. The Center is the world’s largest LGBT organization – we have 10 sites, 800 staff, you know, $180 million budget; it’s a complex organization – and so I was really able to learn while still not having all the pressure. And that was so helpful. Happy to share more about, you know, the how and the why of that was helpful.
But I think the last thing I just want to lift up about why I think it was also successful is that, you know, as I shared, I was the CEO at San Francisco AIDS Foundation before coming to the Los Angeles LGBT Center, and the Center and the Foundation had a long-standing partnership around an event called AIDS/LifeCycle, and so I had worked with Lorri for six years as her peer co-producing that event and so we had the ability to not only build off of our successful friendship and admiration for one another but also, you know, in that time engage in conflict, engage in disagreements, and so we were able to practice that skill set, unbeknownst to us, then put it to use during that time of overlap. And I think if we didn’t have that pre-existing relationship, what we experienced in that one-year overlap may not have been as successful.
Mary Morten: All right. Well, we absolutely want to hear a little bit more about that.
I want to move now, though, to this idea about how you bring forward your vision of the organization while still honoring the legacy of the previous leader, right, while still making sure that you’re lifting up what has been done because, of course, we are all working from the person who’s been there before, their experiences, their relationships. You have to, you know, now build new relationships with the staff.
Jose, how did you do that? Particularly, in this case, your predecessor went on to work for our governor and, again, was moving into another role that would still have some interaction with your organization.
Jose M. Muñoz: Well, I think that the most important thing is to honor that legacy, to actually, you know, take some time to learn about, you know – you know, for me it was to learn her “why,” and why she wanted to be a part of the organization, why she led the organization for such a long time. And to hear that perspective from staff – and actually spent a lot of time talking to staff at La Casa Norte about why they were at the organization, what they had learned from her, and so it was very important that, you know, she was – her story and the origins of La Casa Norte (are very integrally tied to it ?), and so much so that one of the decisions that I made early on was, you know, a lot of times when, you know, people recognize individuals, they wait until after they’re gone and they’re no longer with us to recognize them or to create an award after their name. I decided to do that early on and actually name one of our annual awards at our gala after Sol Flores, which I call the Impact Award and every year we try to honor somebody who has that same drive and dedication to get us where we’re at. So that part of it was important. At the same time, it’s also – you know, one of the things that we did have in common is that we both had a similar vision and we both had a passion for – on the issue of homelessness. And I think that that worked for us too. But at the same time, I’m leading the organization, I led the organization through a very different time than she did. You know, we experienced – because of the pandemic we experienced some tremendous growth. We went from serving 5,000 people to over 18,000 in our first 11 months. We’ve maintained that growth. We’ve expanded the number of programs we’ve done citywide. We’re looking at different ways of supporting and engaging community. And so, for me, that was – it was important that while I honor the history of the work that’s going, that I’m also making sure that I’m setting the tone for what’s expected of us as an organization and how we’re going to meet the needs of the community. And I’ve done that frequently. In fact, I’m often – I spend a lot of time even now with our staff, as we get new staff to come in, talking about my “why,” why we do what we do, while also still sharing the history of the organization.
Mary Morten: And Joe? How did you work on bringing your vision forward, which I happen to know something about your vision since we’re working with you right now? And you’re changing things. How did you think about moving some of your ideas forward while, again, still honoring the incredible number of years that Lorri Jean put in, and successfully so, at the Center?
Joe Hollendoner: Yeah, absolutely. You know, even within my first three months on the job, while I was in the title of, you know, incoming CEO, staff were looking at me like, what’s the strategic plan of the organization going to be? And I was like, chill! (Laughs.) I’m just learning where the restrooms and the copy paper are stored, right? Like, but – and I really wanted to have some time and some grace and some space to not only learn about the organization, learn about our partners, learn about the landscape of Los Angeles, but what did become clear to me is that because, you know, the Center had just gone through this impressive capital campaign to open up the Anita May Rosenstein Campus, we were coming out of the height of the pandemic, the organization’s last strategic plan expired in 2017 – there has sort of been a siloing and a fractioning of the organization in the way in which the organization was working from a common strategy. And I think that that was negatively impacting our workforce but that was also negatively impacting, you know, the care that our clients were experiencing. So while I was really clear that I didn’t envision starting the creation of a strategic plan until I had more time under my belt, what I began to realize is that we needed a strategic framework for the organization to begin to align us internally and begin to think about shared strategy and actually the practice of rigorous change management. And so after my first year of being on staff the board approved a strategic framework that really, then, allowed me to get out to our staff and talk about what it was in terms of my vision for the short term but also how this change management work would lead us towards a more bold and ambitious plan for the future. And so we’re just about completed with the framework. The design of the framework was to wrap by 2025 with the idea that in 2025 we would launch a multiyear strategic plan, and the four components of that framework were to establish a discerning set of organizational values that we could ultimately hold as a decision-making screen for our work but also hold each other accountable. It was about supporting our workforce and making sure that the L.A. LGBT Center returned to be the employer of choice for queer and trans people all throughout the nation and doing everything we needed to do by way of making investments in our workforce to make that happen. It was about our model of care and really thinking about who are our priority populations and how do we center them most in our program design but also allocate the financial resources to those programs that are required, so really thinking about our cost allocation differently. And then the last area, connected, was around financial sustainability. You know, the pandemic was an incredible time for the organization by way of private fundraising but what we began to see just before that time was some pretty significant changes to the 340B pharmacy program that had been so supportive of our work. And so it required an enhancement and a change to our business model. And I think any door you walk through those four initiatives sort of reinforced each other or came up, and so it just allowed for this really cohesive, comprehensive conversation to happen, all grounded in issues of, you know, equity, diversity, inclusion, and justice.
Mary Morten: I guess I’m curious as to – when you started building relationships, just a little bit more on that, did you have a particular way that you did that, because the organization is so large? And we didn’t actually say that you’re a federally qualified health care center, when you talked about the model of care, right? So that’s a part of it. And that in and of itself is a major undertaking, particularly with the pharmacy situation that’s occurred over the last several years with federally qualified health care centers. So how did you build relationships, particularly with the leadership team?
Joe Hollendoner: Yeah. Well, I’ll take a moment to acknowledge my past partnership with The Night Ministry out of the Broadway Youth Center. I had the distinct honor of working with someone named the Reverend Barbara Bolsen, who recently passed away, and, you know, early on, when we opened up the BYC in 2004, that was really the framework that The Night Ministry most brought forward and I learned from was the power of relationship building. And so it’s core to nearly everything I do, if not – (laughs) – everything I do today as a person, both professionally and in my personal life. And it was just that, Mary, right, being really thoughtful about making sure that I’m spending a significant amount of this year of overlap getting to know people at all levels of the organization. And so I did everything from, you know, work a night shift in our shelter, you know, distribute food out of our senior program, sat in the front desk greeting patients at our clinical sites, had what I would call cup of Joe conversations with staff whose maybe work was underappreciated or underrepresented and recorded those conversations over Zoom and shared them out with the staff so that folks got to benefit from the learning that I was doing. So it was multiprong and it’s still ongoing because, again, at an organization that’s 800 people, you’re meeting new people every day. But I think one of the things I’m most proud of, and I’m sure we’ll get back to this a little bit later, is the building of my executive team. You know, I think one of the things that’s so important to sustain future vision and the new leader is for that leader to have authority and ability to establish a team whom they trust, who shares their vision, has their back, and that, to me, is just this – sort of finally come into fruition in the last year or so and now I just feel like we’re firing on all cylinders.
Mary Morten: Wonderful.
And Carol, can you talk a little bit about how you have really brought your vision forward in terms of coming into your role?
Carol J. Sharp: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Joe. You know, a lot of the great work that we’re doing on a day-to-day basis – you mentioned that model and I can certainly see us continuing that work and bringing that to fruition, so we’re really grateful for the connection that you’ve had at The Night Ministry.
I was sharing earlier that I am – I think it’s a unique situation when you encounter individuals who are mission-centered, both in our conversations with donors, with my board of directors – we have volunteers in our offices daily – and most importantly with our staff. And so one of the immediate opportunities that I saw was for us to increase our human connection internally. The mission of our organization is to provide human connection, housing, and health care to unhoused individuals and to serve communities, and so internally we had gone through this process of how we amplify our equity work to ensure that we are taking care of the people who are taking care of our people. And so part of that is listening, right, and so similarly I have what’s called a CEO connection and so creating space to connect with our staff after our all-staff meetings. And it’s just a space where I’m working out of an office where most of our staff might gather or rotating through our different sites, and just literally working there and inviting them to come in at any point to have a conversation to ask clarifying questions and to learn about the experiences that they’re having, but then also ensuring that I am able to go out into the communities and do ride-alongs with our various programs to talk to our clients to understand their journeys and to understand how we can better support them. And so that experience, connecting with our stakeholders, along with my personal journey and knowing the benefits of having organizations like The Night Ministry in service to young people who, in my experience, navigated the foster care system and navigated being in a single-parent household and coming from a different culture, and being able to have a safe haven as a young person to go to, to get access to resources and know that they are consistent, that they are reliable and they’re willing to listen is important. And so where we are is in a stabilization phase, right, and so, you know, I think similarly to Jose’s experience, I didn’t have the benefit of an overlap. In fact, our previous CEO exited the organization a little over a year ago, before I had started, and so it was my role to really come in, assess, really think about what are some of the sort of low-hanging-fruit issues that we could tackle, but then, in that process, as I’m assessing, really thinking about what are the ways in which we are going to stabilize our organization before we establish sort of a new vision? We are in year three of our strategic plan and so we’ve made some significant progress and like many nonprofit organizations coming off the (helm of ?) the quarantine, we experienced an influx of support for our work so that we could continue that great work. While a number of people had to shelter in place, we were on the streets ensuring that we were bringing resources to those in need, and that came with some resources. So we grew pretty rapidly. And so now we’re taking a closer look at our business model, ensuring that we are being financially responsible, and ensuring that we’re elevating, as I mentioned, that human connection, both internally and externally. We’re evaluating our programs and we’re ensuring that we are resetting our own personal lives, because being mission-centered and carrying on the legacy of our now late founder, Tom Behrens, who, rest his soul, he passed away a couple of weeks ago, we want to be sure that we get back to the root of why we are here, why it’s so important for us to be part of the fight to end homelessness across Chicago and, in many ways, stabilize those who are living unsheltered on a daily basis. And so, you know, to answer your question, when I think about my vision, it is still in process, but I certainly have a short-term vision for ensuring that our organization has a new foundation for success and that our team members understand how much they are valued in their roles and that they understand that we’re willing to invest in their success at The Night Ministry or in the nonprofit space in general, wherever they decide to grow.
Mary Morten: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
And I’m very sorry; I didn’t realize that Tom Behrens had died. Thank you for sharing that.
Jose, when you think about – and you’ve mentioned this a number of times, right, the person that you were following had, you know, a big personality. How do you get folks to move along with you, right, in terms of your vision and your hopes for the future, for the organization? How did you work with stakeholders? You still may be doing that now. But how do you get people to come into your camp, if you will, and to understand where you’re coming from and what your hopes are for the organization?
Jose M. Muñoz: Well, first let me start off by saying that, you know, we’re just starting our strategic planning process and it’s our first formal strategic planning process since I’ve been with the organization now, because of, you know, everything that was going on in the world. You know, we had to put that on hold. We did have an interim plan and it was a three-prong plan that I put together. One of – the first step is to look at impact of sustainability, also look at feedback and dialogue and quality and innovation. You know, those were the three prongs of the plan. But the big one for me was feedback and dialogue, spending time talking with staff, talking with clients, speaking with our donors, our partners, and having conversations. Those conversations have not stopped. So spending time talking with individuals is of the utmost importance. And that’s a big part of – you asked the question, how do we get folks to move along with the vision that I’m setting for the organization? It’s by building relationships, and it’s building relationships with stakeholders and individuals across different sectors. We’ve had a lot of leadership changes in the city of Chicago, in the state of Illinois, you know, not just with elected officials but heads of organizations that fund us. And so it’s meeting with those new leaders and really talking about the mission and the work that we’re doing. And at the end of the day, that’s the real reason people get aligned with any organization. It’s that mission and that vision. You know, it’s not just about, you know, our previous executive director, Sol Flores, it’s not about me, it’s about the youth and the families that we serve. And to really spend time talking about those stories and uplifting those stories, you know, and sharing some of the work that our staff are doing to support the youth in our programs is really what gets people connected to the mission. But you have to have the opportunity to do it, you know. And I love the fact that, like I was saying, the last year I’m finally getting the ability to be able to do what I wanted to do in year one and that’s spending time with individuals. We started hosting small dinners with some of our major donors, at La Casa Norte, just to meet with them and have a few folks, eight to 10 to individuals is the plan, and just sit down and have a more intimate conversation about what we’re doing as an organization and doing that same thing with staff as well.
Mary Morten: You know, interestingly enough, I just realized that both you and Joe had new buildings, really, to show off to folks as you were coming into this role, because the building’s fairly new, Jose, right, when you came?
Jose M. Muñoz: Yeah, the building opened up in 2019, you know, and I often talk – when I talk about why we grew so quick it’s because we have this beautiful building and had the ability to be able to do that work. So the building opened in 2020 and it never shut down. Even during the pandemic, you know, the place was always busy and buzzing with people. It’s actually quieter now than it was during the pandemic. (Laughs.)
Mary Morten: And you also started a pantry during that time, a food pantry, which is quite elaborate; I’ve been to it. Yeah, it’s lovely.
Jose M. Muñoz: We have a food pantry that we operate in partnership with Nourishing Hope, and at the height of the pandemic, in addition to – you know, I don’t know how many folks knew this, but 112 food pantries shut down in the city of Chicago at the onset of the pandemic. We expanded our hours and expanded our number of days and, in addition to that, started going to different communities on the South Side of Chicago where most of those food pantries closed, to host popup food pantries where we were distributing food in the streets and to make sure that we were meeting the needs of communities. And that’s the type of commitment that we’ve made these last four years that I think, you know, speaks volumes of our team and the staff because it’s that kind of initiative that helped propel our growth because we were there. Like I said, we never shut our doors.
Mary Morten: Right. Well, tell me this, how do you react to this statement that someone shared with me during COVID in particular: If you were a leader that managed with your head, during this time you really need to manage with your heart – particularly for you, Jose, and Joe, because you were in your roles in the pandemic, in the, you know, the crux of the pandemic. Did you change how you thought about leadership, how you actually led?
Jose M. Muñoz: I 100 percent agree with that statement. When I came in I had – like I said, I had ambitious plans, I had this listening tour planned out, things that I wanted to do to get out there. You know, I had put a plan together what my transition was going to look like. That all went out the door because six weeks later everything shut down. And you know, at that time, you know, being a new executive director, I made a very public commitment that we weren't closing our doors and that we were going to double down on our mission. And I did that because of the conversations I was having with the youth in our programs. I still remember walking into one of our shelters and one of our youth crying because he was upset and he was worried that we – you know, at that time there were all these stories that were going on and he was worried that we were going to shut our doors and he was not going to have anywhere to go. And I told him we weren’t closing our doors, and in fact, at the height of the pandemic we expanded the number of beds that we were hosting because we were working with the city out of one of the YMCAs I had been working at. Those weren’t things that we had planned. We were – very much, while still keeping an eye on the future, we were reacting to the needs of the community. And it was a time to lead with your heart, it was a time to lead with the real reason we all do the work that we do and to lead with compassion, and it really changed my own leadership style during that time.
Mary Morten: OK.
Joe, have anything to add to that?
Joe Hollendoner: Yeah, quickly. I mean, I think it’s not just about the pandemic. I think what, you know, the nonprofit sector but also any social justice movement is really, I think, looking for is empathic leadership as opposed to visionary leadership. Now, that’s not to say that, you know, the empathic leader doesn’t need to be a visionary and make good on that vision, but I do think it’s the characteristics of what we look to in a leader are shifting and changing, especially from younger generations, and I think that especially came true not just as a result of the pandemic but also, you know, the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and we just needed to be able to meet the moment, and those leaders who were adept in being responsive to feedback, adept in being responsive to the shift I think continue to be successful, and those that weren’t, you know, I don’t think are experiencing the success they once might have.
Mary Morten: OK. You’re listening to “Gathering Ground.” We’re going to take a short break. We’re back in a moment.
Hi, everyone; thanks so much for joining me on “Gathering Ground.” We want to hear from you. If you have any questions about your work in nonprofits or any of the topics that we've covered here on “Gathering Ground,” send them on in; send them to mary@gatheringgroundpodcast.com. That's mary @ gatheringgroundpodcast — all one word — dot com. We look forward to hearing from you.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to “Gathering Ground.” Today we’re talking with Joe Hollendoner, Jose Muñoz, and Carol Sharp, and we’re talking about how you make the transition as you enter into a new role that’s been held by a long-time leader or a founder of a nonprofit.
And Jose, tell us one thing that surprised you about this role that you maybe hadn’t given much thought before you moved into it.
Jose M. Muñoz: Yeah. You know, I had several leadership roles before this but never the CEO of an organization, and one of the biggest surprises I had was how much what I’m feeling in my mood and how that impacts the organization and the leadership, you know, and it’s just this whole idea of, like – and I saw that most, you know, over the last couple years when – when we were out of crisis mode – when we were in crisis mode, everybody else was in crisis mode. When I was feeling stressed and tired and, you know, I was bringing that with me, and so I realized it surprised me how much, you know, my own emotions and what I was bringing to work was impacting not just, you know, the people that were reporting to me (immediately ?) but the entire organization. And so lesson, you know, that I’ve learned these last few years of how important it is for me to maintain a healthy balance between how I’m feeling and my personal life and the organization, that I have to bring the best version of myself to the organization, that when I’m feeling down I need to listen to my body and stop and take a break, because if I don’t do that it does have a negative impact on the organization. So that was the biggest lesson that I learned, so much so that there’s a song by Ludacris, “Stand Up.” (Laughs.) “When I move, you move.” I keep that song playing and I remind myself in the morning, that’s my alarm, because I know that, like, hey, what you do they’re going to do. So be your best. Be the best version of yourself at work, or bring it with you at work.
Mary Morten: All right!
And Joe, do you have any music you’re listening to in the morning that gets you going? (Laughs.)
Joe Hollendoner: Well, it’s all about “Cowboy Carter” right now in my house.
Mary Morten: That’s great. We’re going to leave that there because, of course, I love Beyoncé. But what I want to talk to you about, Joe, is the executive team. You mentioned this earlier. Let’s talk a little bit about the importance of being able to build your executive team because I would like to hear from everyone about that, but let’s start with you in terms of how you went about that because you generally inherit some folks when you come into a role and then sometimes there are vacancies that you then can start to build your team. What was your experience?
Joe Hollendoner: Yeah, I mean, you know, first let me say that, you know, everyone who was on the executive team when I came in were people that I very much enjoyed working with and I think one of the truths is that, you know, Lorri had built a very strong executive team who was very committed to her leadership and so they had long tenures with the organization, and I think one of the things that folks realized upon my onboarding is that it wasn’t going to be just a continuation of the good work that had been happening at the Center but that change was afoot. And you know, I think some folks thought they were up for it who ultimately realized that they weren’t up for it. Some folks were up for it and have continued to excel in that space, and then there are others who just, you know, flat out made the decision, even before my arrival, that it was time to walk away. And you know, all those decisions were the right decisions for them, all those work for my leadership and for the organization. And so I think it’s just the ability for new leaders who inherit existing teams to be able to lean into those uncomfortable conversations or those direct conversations about what it is that you’re looking for and what it is that you need and how the past is no longer the present or the future. And, you know, tears were shed on all sides but we’re in a strong place today, and I think that what excites me about the team that has been built today is that it’s representative of the diverse gender identities and expressions within our community, it’s representative of BIPOC communities in a way that the executive team had never been before. But it’s also folks who really understand what is expected about leadership that’s different than maybe the previous, you know, decades and showing up in an empathic way, showing up in a vulnerable way, showing up in a humble way, and I just think that this team that I have been fortunate to bring together is absolutely going to not only stabilize the Center, the future, but build a vision and a reality for our clients and our community that will make Lorri proud.
Mary Morten: Talk a little bit about the board work, the board development work, that you are engaged with.
Joe Hollendoner: Sure. You know, like Carol, we have many long-standing board members. You know, the person with the most seniority has been on the board for about three years – I’m sorry – (laughs) – has been on the board for about 30 years and our newest board members have been on for about three years. So there’s quite a span between our most senior and our most junior board members. And I think what the board recognized is that as part of our equity work that we really needed to contemplate our bylaws, our election process, the fact that we didn’t have term limits, and have been engaging in really diligent conversations about what is best practice as it relates to governance, what is best practice as it relates to equity, and really evolving the board. And I’m excited to see them meeting this moment, responding to my feedback about what I think the board needs to evolve to in order to continue to stay relevant, and I’m really excited about where the board – the current and the future board will take this organization.
Mary Morten: Wonderful.
Carol, how is that going on your end with regard to building your executive team and your work with the board of directors?
Carol J. Sharp: Yeah. So we have a fairly new executive leadership team with – our newest member of our team has been with our organization for about a month. But at this point we have new leaders at the organization. We are certainly grateful for all of the work, the many years of dedication from our previous executive leaders and we’re really excited about this new chapter. Similarly, our board of directors are eager – so they’re eager to understand ways in which they can be supportive of our organization, they’re eager to be part of the conversation, and understanding the operational work that we’re doing on a daily basis so then they can use that in a way to figure out how they can bring more resources to us. We recently completed our annual retreat where we spend a lot of our time discussing how we are unlocking our fundraising potential and how we’re thinking differently about the ways in which we utilize our networks to bring resources to the organization. And that’s not always, you know, in the form of a check. You know, there are other ways in which we benefit from having access to things like new devices and perhaps there are companies that are, you know, upgrading their devices, that we might be able to inherit some of their gently loved devices. So we had some real conversations about ways in which they might have encountered barriers in the past to support our organization and then how we can think differently about ways in which we, you know, overcome those barriers moving into the future.
We are taking a look at our recruitment process, we’re ensuring that we have a framework for diversity on our board and thinking about ways in which we utilize the historical context of those that have been committed to the organization for many years to drive the way that our newer board members are thinking about how they show up and how they want to continue the legacy of work. I’ve been fortunate to have a great slate of officers, which I think is important to highlight, you know, when we think about, like, the chairs of our committees and I think about our – the chair of our board and our vice chair and treasurers and – the transition process is not easy, and so I know many of us, you know, here we know that, you know, to do things like to transfer the business aspects of our organization requires time, requires our volunteer board members to give up their time to make that happen. And so I’ve been really fortunate to have directors who are ready to lean in, to be part of conversations, roundtables that we are having about our departments and how we’re evolving those departments, and showing up to our board meetings and showing up to volunteer for our youth program events and things like that. So we want to ensure that we are extending our gratitude to them, letting them know that they are valued, and that every member of our board of directors has an opportunity to contribute in a way that feels most valuable to them and keeps them connected to our mission.
Mary Morten: Wonderful. You know, one of the things that I often ask when I’m talking to CEOs and executive directors is what are you doing for fun? What are you doing to take care of yourself? How do you replenish, renew, and then go right back into it the next day or the next week?
And Jose, I’m going to start with you.
Jose M. Muñoz: Yeah, I think for me one of the things that – I like to make time to read and to write. Writing is something that I’ve always enjoyed. I had stopped journaling and writing for a few years and lately I’ve picked that up. I give myself a daily prompt, I write something about it, and that’s a good way for me to disconnect. And believe it or not, some of those writing exercises have actually turned into op-ed pieces that I’ve had published. (Laughs.) But it’s a good way to disconnect.
You know, I do want to quickly – I know you just answered that last question but I just want to throw in something that – related to our board. I’m very – I’ve been very fortunate that I’ve had a great board. About half my board has been here 10-plus years. The other half of my board has been recruited since I’ve been with the organization. So it’s a nice mix to have that institutional knowledge but also have some folks with some fresh ideas. So just, you know, encourage folks to continue to look at that type of board service, to have that mix. You don’t want to lose that institutional knowledge.
Mary Morten: Absolutely. Agreed.
And Carol, what are you doing for fun?
Carol J. Sharp: That’s a work in progress for me. What I will say – (laughs) – what I will say, I really enjoy the work that I do. Part of the reason why I take on positions and take on challenges and join a mission is because it is truly personal. And so I create opportunities to acknowledge the wins that we have in every moment, and it might be something big, it might be something small, but acknowledging the wins are really important. Mixing up the sort of – the day, although we all know that not every day is different so being able to sit in a space like this among thought partners and thought leaders in our work and have this rich conversation feels fun for me. I’ll also add that I have an 18-year-old and a 3-year-old so they’re fun in different ways. (Laughs.) And so, you know, I enjoy spending time with my family and I think it’s important that we recognize the importance of maintaining that balance and defining wellness and self-care for whatever that needs be for us individually.
Mary Morten: OK. And I’m going to come to you, Joe. And I’ll just say that I generally have tried to move away from saying work-life balance because I don’t know that that’s ever really possible, right? I often say work-life integration. What are you doing, Joe?
Joe Hollendoner: Yeah, well, you know, spoiler alert: One of our values is joy and so what I’m so excited about is the fact that we are really celebrating joy and seeing joy as an active resiliency and an active resistance for our organization, and so making sure that we don’t just have a set of values that live on a piece of paper but that we’re living and embodying them, and so even with my executive team, finding that balance in our meetings, finding that balance in the way that we’re engaging with each other brings me so much joy and creates that integration that you’re looking for, right, or describing, Mary, because it’s not just about silo over here, silo over here, but it’s like bringing the relational, bringing the joy into all sectors of your life. And so that’s been really helpful.
I’ll also just say, you know, working for a community center, the way that I get to engage in the work is different, right, because we get to see community building as a core part of our work, and so that just allows me to participate in our theater programming or events for our donors and supporters and volunteers, and that’s just – I feel a different relationship to those types of events because I actually feel like community building is at the core of that, as opposed to just a transactional relationship, and so that also makes me happy and find a balance in the work that’s different. And then I’ll also just say, you know, it’s Los Angeles and it’s a new city for me and just making sure that my husband and I are spending lots of time exploring our new home and making it feel just as special of a place as Chicago did for us. And, you know, in contrast to our short six-year experience in San Francisco, this feels like home and this feels like a place where we want to build and create connections with friends, and so we’re doing that.
Mary Morten: Wonderful. And running marathons as well. Joe just ran – was it three or four marathons in the last year?
Joe Hollendoner: Just three. (Laughs.)
Mary Morten: Just three. That’s just three. God, what a slacker. OK. (Laughs.)
OK, so we’re going to wrap up shortly and I’d like to close with hearing from you what advice you would offer a board of directors as they’re going through this kind of process, and again this particular situation of bringing in a new leader who is following a long-time leader or founder, for the candidates as well as for the board of directors, either or both, if you have some words of wisdom that you would share with someone who’s considering a role like this or with a board of directors.
And who would like to start?
Joe Hollendoner: I’m happy to go.
Mary Morten: OK, Joe.
Joe Hollendoner: So my biggest piece of advice for a candidate inheriting an organization is get a contract and be really clear about the expectations the board has on you for the first year and make sure that if it doesn’t work out you have a way to land safely and comfortably that continues to set you up for success in your professional pursuits. And then the second thing I would say to board members is, you know, what’s really hard about onboarding into a new organization is holding all the relationships, especially when, you know, the person that you’re succeeding has been around for 25 years and they have such deep and historic relationships. And for the new CEO to come in and be expected to hold, you know, 600-plus relationships, and the complexity of those relationships, is just unrealistic. And so what I wish could have and should have happened in this transition plan is that Lorri would have spent more time transitioning relationships to board members to hold them and then they can transition those relationships to me over time, but that – you know, there wasn’t so much pressure on me, and perhaps there wasn’t such a sense of loss in the people who were so highly connected to Lorri, right? I think that could have been fortified a bit more.
Mary Morten: Wonderful. OK.
Let me just – (inaudible) – this idea of get a contract. Did you mean literally contract versus a hire letter, or were you just saying make sure you get something in writing?
Joe Hollendoner: Get a contract. I mean, I think that that is becoming nonprofit best practice, or has been nonprofit best practice for a while, and if you can’t get your board to commit to a contract perhaps that’s actually the work of the outgoing CEO to help the board understand why that contract is an appropriate thing for CEOs within nonprofit settings. Lorri’s a big advocate for that and really helped not just pave the way for the Center but also most queer organizations in the nation, but if a contract doesn’t seem realistic for your board or your situation, I would say then a really well-thought-out offer letter that includes some of the conditions that come in a contract.
Mary Morten: OK, great.
OK, Carol, what would you add?
Carol J. Sharp: I want to echo Joe’s sentiment about a contract and add to – if you have the ability, get an attorney to review that contract. Make sure that, you know, it’s a form of advocacy. It’s a form of advocacy for yourself, but then it also provides some education to your organization, right? And so, you know, we know that board of directors, there’s a new slate of officers at different points, you know, every year or annually, depending on your terms, and so you want to be sure that you are also supporting with some of that succession planning. So my advice to board of directors is to be patient with your new CEO, be supportive, so make yourself available to meet with them, to answer questions, but then also prioritize the succession planning of your governance, of your board governance, ensuring that the processes are in place and giving attention to the ways in which you govern the organization – can certainly create space for the CEO to focus on different things, and so I certainly think that that’s an effort that would eliminate some of the challenges with onboarding as a new CEO. So prioritizing that is something I would say for board of directors.
And I want to go back to new CEOs because this is also my first president and CEO role and walking into this, I think, naturally, there are some questions about the “why” and what will I be able to accomplish, and I think remembering that you were selected for a reason, that you already have the skills necessary in order to do the job, and be resourceful because it’s OK to say you don’t know the answer to everything, but part of the reason that we are in these positions is because we are problem solvers, and so utilize your resources to solve those problems and know that ultimately you are there for a reason, to leave the organization in a better position than it was when you came, and you’re capable of that.
Mary Morten: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
Jose, bring us on home.
Jose M. Muñoz: Yeah, I think my advice for a new CEO would be to recognize and embrace the fact that you represent a significant change to the organization, so you should lean into that change. You know, know that, you know, it’s a change for the board, it’s a change for the clients, it’s a change for the staff, it’s a change for the vision of the organization, the stakeholders around you, so you’ve got to lean into it and know that you are that change. The other thing is — part of that is listen, seek support, ask questions. As Carol just said, you know, you have that job because you belong in that job because you have the requisite skills to do the job, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t ask for help or ask support, talk to peers. You know, there’s a lot of confusion, especially during turbulent times, to look and ask for guidance.
And for board members, I would say, you know, don’t wait until an executive director leaves; start the planning process early. Start planning for the future and know that at some point there’s going to be some change needed and start that succession plan, both for the board and the head of the organization. So start with that plan and then have a plan, and that succession plan should not just include what type of leader you’re looking for, but what the expectations are going to be for that leader and that first year, second year, including how you’re going to evaluate that leader. You know, are you going to engage in a listening session with the organization and partners so that it doesn’t come to a surprise to the new leader? And then the third thing that I would say for that board is to plan on some professional development, whether that be coaching or support for that new executive leader, especially if they’re coming into the role for the first time. Even if they, you know, know how to do the job, it’s important to provide some kind of support for them, and that support isn’t always going to come from the board. You need some professional support and that means education, some additional learnings, or I would recommend an executive coach.
Mary Morten: Well, as you know, we absolutely – (laughs) – recommend an executive coach. We recommend going to, if possible, the Axelson Center for Nonprofit Management bootcamp; it’s one of the few offered in the country, right here in Chicago, and I’m on the faculty and have been for about nine years. And so absolutely professional development, very, very important.
So a heartfelt thank you to our guests for sharing their invaluable experiences with us. As they navigate the "next act" of their organizations, their insights offer a road map for boards and leaders alike. Remember, transitions are more than just challenges; they’re opportunities for growth. Change is the only constant, so remember to embrace the journey, learn from the past, and pave the way for a bright future.
So stay connected, never be afraid to forge a new path, and keep gathering ground. I'm Mary Morten. Until next time.