EPISODE 56: THE POWER OF A STORY
Mary Morten: Welcome back to “Gathering Ground.” I'm Mary Morten, your host and president of Morten Group, LLC. We all have stories, both personal and collective. Whether on social media, in front of an audience, or around a meal with chosen family, stories shape who we are, guide our decisions, and connect us to each other and to something larger than ourselves. But how do we tell our stories and lift each others’ stories up, and how can we support organizations and movements in telling theirs?
My guests for this conversation are deeply familiar with the power stories have to build bridges, to ignite action, and foster a sense of belonging.
Julie Ganey is a multi-talented artist, writer, and collaborator with Morten Group, and she brings a wealth of experience weaving narratives across different mediums.
Willa Taylor is Morten Group’s consulting partner, former director of education and community engagement at Goodman Theatre, and an arts educator with over 30 years’ experience in the arts education field.
Terrence Chappell is the principal of Chappell Communications Group, who Morten Group has been collaborating with since early last year. Terrence is a pro at crafting nuanced messages for social media, ensuring they land with their desired impact.
Julie, Willa, and Terrence shared their expertise on tapping into a story's emotional core and building community, all in an effort to make a difference in the world. I know you’ll enjoy this conversation.
Thank you so much for being here and welcome to “Gathering Ground.” We’re going to start by (getting ?) a little background on each of you. We like to give our listeners some context for some of the comments you’ll be making.
And I’m going start with you, Terrence. Tell us about Chappell Communications and how it all got started.
Terrence Chappell: Absolutely. So Chappell Communications – I’ve had Chappell Communications Group for about three years now. I was never a Millennial that was like, I’m going to go out and do it on my own. (Laughs.) It sort of organically happened to me – to me. I feel like it chose me. And so what we do is that we specialize in socializing nuanced messaging, leveraging social media as a vehicle, right, and so it’s mainly in the context of advocacy work, mission-based work. We’ve worked with the American Library Association on their banned books campaign. One of the campaigns I’m really proud about that we worked on that I had the honor to partner was with Lamont J. Robinson, who at the time was an alderman – excuse me, he was a state rep; now he’s an alderman. And so on the early onset of the pandemic they were going to close Mercy Hospital, and that would have caused a significant health care desert, so we were able to partner with his office to mobilize people all in an off-site and eventually find a buyer for them. So a lot of the work is based in about the community and how we can overall, like, really accelerate their stories in a very nuanced and storytelling kind of way that helps us celebrate the mission of our client partners.
Mary Morten: All right, so four years. And are you still happy that you did this?
Terrence Chappell: You know – (laughs) – yes. There are some days when I just want to crawl underneath my bed and there are some days when I – (inaudible) – a bagger at Trader Joe’s. But I will say this: I learn – you know, I always learn something new from my client partners and I always feel like I’m growing professionally, emotionally even, and so absolutely. I will say it’s a rewarding hustle.
Mary Morten: Love it. And I have some stories, of course, I can share with you later, after 23 years here at Morten Group.
Julie, tell us about your background and how you arrived at Morten Group.
Julie Ganey: Well, my background is in theater and performance and over the years I got very involved with arts education and community-based theater. And then, in 2008, a friend invited me to a – he called it a grown-up storytelling show. And back in 2008 there weren’t as many storytelling companies, live lit wasn’t the thing that it is now. I had no idea, really, what he meant by grown-up storytelling show, because, to me, storytelling was, you know, people in jester hats with finger puppets and that kind of thing at libraries. But I went to the show and was completely captivated. I was captivated by the connection that was formed between the storyteller and the audience and between audience members who then wanted to share their own stories. And it has been a part of my life ever since. I now – the work that I do, storytelling is embedded in all of it, either as an art form or as a tool. I believe in storytelling as a tool for healing and connection. And I came to Morten Group because I was working as a facilitator and my boss recommended me to Morten Group and then I became a facilitator at Morten Group, and that was another just blossoming in my life, a whole new world to think about in terms of stories and using stories for very, very important equity work in the world.
Mary Morten: Wonderful. Thank you.
And Willa, tell us about your time at the Goodman and why storytelling has become so critical to the work that you do.
Willa Taylor: Yeah, well, I come from a family of storytellers, you know? I mean, the idea of sitting around the dinner table every day and especially on Sundays and listening to the stories about our family and our neighbors and our community, that’s how I grew up. And so I always loved storytelling but I didn’t really understand it to be a thing, right? It was just something that we did as part of who we were. I was at the Goodman for about 16 and a half years as the director of education and engagement and one year we did a production of this really incredible Samuel Beckett play, “Krapp’s Last Tape,” with the late, great Brian Dennehy, and the story is really about a man who, as opposed to really living his life, he records it on audio cassettes, and on his birthday, which is now his 80th birthday in the play, he goes back and he listens to these tapes and sort of laments the things that he should have done, the things that he could have done. And I was moderating a post-show one night and this young woman, who was probably the youngest person in the audience by at least 30 years, stood up and said, you know, I wish that I had had the forethought to record my grandmother, who had just died, on audiotape so I could hear some of her stories. And I thought, you know, that – I’m sure that that is what a lot of people think, right? I wish – even in my family I wish I had been able to capture some of those stories. And so I created this program called GeNarrations for people 55 and above that essentially is personal narrative storytelling. And it has been actually the thing I’m most proud of in my life. Professionally, it’s one of the best things I’ve ever done. And to hear these people who almost invariably start with, I don’t really have a story, I didn’t really live a life of significance, I was just a housewife, I was just a schoolteacher or whatever, and then they tell these magnificent, wonderful stories – I just hope and pray that their families are getting those stories as well and getting to know them as human beings and not just as grandma or grandpa.
Mary Morten: Wonderful. Thank you.
So let’s talk a little bit about how storytelling really does help build communities and particularly ones that focus on racial equity, inclusion, and access, and I know some of the work, Julie, that you’ve done has certainly been in this arena as well. Can you start us off in terms of how you’ve seen it used to really push forward those messages and concepts?
Julie Ganey: I think storytelling is the best tool we have for changing minds. Facts and data are important but it’s actually emotion that changes minds and a story adds meaning to facts and inspires emotion. So when it comes to work of such import as social justice work, humans have a hard time truly understanding sometimes and having empathy for injustice that’s outside their experience. You know, if I’m able-bodied, I’m moving through the world and my experience of the world is that it’s pretty accessible. I’m not spending my time thinking about what it would be like for someone with a hearing impairment or to use a wheelchair. A story, though, can make visceral, in a very sensory way, the challenges of another human being, and that’s one of the ways that I think connection happens.
Mary: Willa?
Willa Taylor: I completely agree with Julie. I think that storytelling is healing in ways that we sort of take for granted. It’s the way that we know who we are in the world and the way we know who we are in relationship to other people and to the world. It never ceases to amaze me, when folks tell a story, how the listeners to that storyteller find connections in their own lives to those stories. And I think that the power of storytelling is that we often – in a world that constantly is telling us about our differences and about our divisions, storytelling is the thing that shows us our commonalities and our humanity.
Mary Morten: Wonderful.
And so, Terrence, when you think about the work that you do with regard to digital marketing, how are you bringing the stories and thought leadership pieces to the fore?
Terrence Chappell: Absolutely. First, I want to – Willa, you said something that resonated with me so much, and now that I’m older, I have such an appreciation for, like, my godmommy, my grandparents, and, like, I really did wish we recorded it. The stories and the lessons they’ve said, I find myself kind of repeating that to, like, other people, and so it’s so, so – it’s so momentous. That just really resonated with me a lot when you talk about, like, ancestors, yeah, because I was really close with mine.
But to answer your question, Mary, I think you involve them in the content, you involve them in the marketing, you involve them internally, and they’re best to tell their stories, and I believe when you involve whatever target audience or communities that – whose stories you’re trying to amplify, you have a sit-down with them, you involve them in that kind of – some parts of the strategy – like you said, the strategy but, like, hey, like, let’s go to where they’re at, and I immediately think of one of our previous clients, the Chicago Black Gay Men’s Caucus, they started – or they have a Chi Wellness Portal and it’s for – you know, designed by and for Black same-gender-loving men, and there are so many different touch points for it, like some of it is for, like, getting people connected to health care services, some of it is just, you know, where can I kick it out for a Friday or Saturday night? And it’s a really robust narrative. And so the way we went about that campaign is that we looked for different prolific voices who each represented a touch point, a part of the app, and we were able to find out so much information because, one, they felt very comfortable, they were their own family, and we kind of had more of a conversation, and, you know, some of them really opened up about some of their drug addiction problems and some of them – for some that wasn’t their story at all. Like, they grew up in a really stable household. And so I love the fact – because nobody’s monolithic, right? And so I love the fact that we were able, specifically with that campaign, to capture those different experiences, is because a lot of times, to your point, Julie, like, data is great but sometimes data can sometimes be leveraged in, like, a very nefarious way. And so I think when you put a face to not just data but, like, humanize those stories, people – there’s an emotional question that’s reached there, right? Hopefully. And I think that that, overall, is a lot more powerful than the data itself or the stats because, at the end of the day, statistics, they’re just there to let us know where we need to put resources at; they’re not meant to, like, describe an entire group of people. So, like, I love – I always advise my client partners that it’s really – you know, it’s about the work and how your organization comes into a support role for that work, to move that along.
Mary Morten: So let’s say you’re working with an organization – and this is for any of you, and I know that Julie and Willa, of course, have done workshops together and you’ve done them in companies, right – you know, for-profit corporations. When you are approaching or thinking, OK, we’re going to be doing a storytelling workshop, what are the things that you find it necessary to know about the group that you’re getting to work with?
Terrence Chappell: So when I visit someone’s website and I can’t tell what they do – (laughs) – that’s a telltale sign, and then I’ve had to, like, have the temerity to say it, quite not like that, but it’s, like, just to, kind of like, hey, like, get more information because if I don’t know enough about their organization, the content is going to be off. It’s going to be off. So, like, I need to know – so we often set up, like, exploratory calls – like we’ve done a – (inaudible) – and made our working relationship a lot easier. And so when I don’t know what the mission or it seems very vague, I often have to, like, add additional strategy prep sessions before we even get into the strategy, is because I want to make sure that it’s a well-informed strategy, but if I find that I don’t get exactly what the organization’s about or what the end goal is or whatever, then it makes it difficult to develop a well-informed strategy that informs the content that’s going to help accelerate your mission. So I need to understand the (urbanization ?) before I even do anything.
Willa Taylor: One of the first questions I ask is, why do you want to do the workshop? What’s the outcome for you that you’re looking for? You know, sometimes people will say, well, I want to – I want my team to be able to tell the story of this product, but in reality, then, when we dig in a little bit more, what it is is they want team building, that the team is not functioning well, right? And so it’s not so much about how do you describe the product but how do you get everybody on board to understand what the product is internally? So that’s always one of the first questions I ask.
Mary Morten: Julie? What would you add to that?
Julie Ganey: I think the most important thing is to get clear on what their goals are, as Terrence and Willa have mentioned. You know, sometimes an organization is trying to figure out how do we tell the story of our organization? “It’s this really inspiring story; we don’t know how to do it.” Other times an organization is trying to tell a story that demonstrates what it’s like to work with them, and other times organizations are looking to tell a story that demonstrates what their clients are able to accomplish through working with the organization, like the real impact. So figuring out what it is exactly that they’re trying to get at – and sometimes that can be done by looking at the data and statistics – (laughs) – that they’re pushing out there. You can kind of get a sense of here’s what I think you’re trying to convey; let’s see if we can get to a story that will bring this to life in some way.
Mary Morten: And in your experience, how long does it take to make those connections and to really dig more deeply and figure out OK, they said they wanted us to do this piece, but actually we need to do this other piece. How long does it take to sort of figure that out, from your various experiences?
Julie Ganey: It takes longer than you think, because we’re on a discovery mission. You know, we’re circling around something. We’re trying to know each other, figure out what values need to be illuminated for folks to find meaning in the work that this organization does, and these are big ideas. They’re not the kind of thing that come out in annual reports. So it takes time to have conversations and ask questions and kind of circle around ideas till we land there.
Willa Taylor: It also often is – especially in corporate environments, there has been a mandate that has come down from on high, and so sometimes the people who you’re actually talking to about the workshop are not the people who’ve made this decision and they don’t know, right? And you have to really dig in and ask a lot of questions and also get them comfortable because, you know, for us we come in, we do the work, but they will have more repercussions around whether or not the work is successful than we will because they will have to sort of be there in that environment. And so you have to get them really comfortable with you so that they’re honest enough to say really what it is that they want, as opposed to just saying what it is that they think we want to hear or that they think it’s what they want.
Mary Morten: Terrence, part of what you do focuses on socializing nuanced messaging. Explain what that means in relationship to storytelling.
Terrence Chappell: Absolutely. So nuanced messaging, a lot of the work we do – again, it’s in the context of advocacy work so I’ll use the banned books campaign as an example. So year after year some of the top 10 banned books – it’s usually about race or sexuality, and so – and it’s – it can be easy to go for the low-hanging fruit, but you want to explain, like – so, like, it’s about intellectual freedom, right? It’s about intellectual curiosity and about these different stories. And so I think it’s important, like, even when – a lot of our campaigns are around Black and Brown folks and so we’re not monolithic, and so you want to make sure you capture those different, like, kind of gray areas and, like, their experiences within that content.
And just to kind of piggyback off of what you were saying, what both ladies were saying, we put together this – one of our clients, corporate client, love working with them, and so we – you know, I try to have a process – (laughs) – and we had a few strategy working sessions and then we put together, like, this enterprise LinkedIn social media strategy. I think it was like 100 slides because it was really robust. And then we went through it and then they were like, this is great but it’s all wrong. And it was like, it’s not your fault, but since we talked, everything has changed. And so I’ve had to learn how to be flexible and then even kind of, like, when we follow up saying that OK, just being very explicit, like we’re going to do more listening. So we’re going to have a conversation guide to help kind of steer that conversation, so – where we – so (we can ?) get there, because there are times where, like, you can put together the strategy and it’s, like, maybe one round of review and approvals and we’re good, but this is going to be a much longer game. And for us, when I’m looking at specifically, like, nuanced messaging, I do some social listening and some social media monitoring. For instance, we put together a proposal for one of our clients and some of her focus areas are intellectual freedom, Black woman liberation, strategy and innovation, under a social justice lens, right? And so a lot of the topics that were popping up from each – no matter which one it was was Elon Musk, it was the Kids [Online] Safety Act about social media and protecting kids. And so, like, that’s what I mean, like, nuance, like, not going for the low-hanging fruit of what we may think in our minds about it but applying social listening data and seeing what people are talking about, and so, like, basically the insight behind that was that when you’re engaging people, specifically her, on LinkedIn, your conversations should – (inaudible) – global because there was a lot of things about India, there’s obviously Palestine and, like, intellectual freedom, and so, like, making sure that we’re not, again, going for what we think maybe obvious but, like, more so – a lot of times, like, what the client isn’t telling me and then making sure that we reflect that in the work and giving them some things to think about like – giving them what they want but also saying, like, have you thought about this type of messaging for your target audience and this is what they’re saying on social media. Yeah, they’re talking about banned books but they’re also talking about it very much on a global level.
Mary Morten: OK. Well, that certainly makes sense. And when we think about how all this ties together with regard to, again, focusing on storytelling. Why do you think storytelling is having a moment, right? You know, storytelling in social media, storytelling live performances, storytelling groups that have actually started during COVID and that are doing quite well now. There’s the Fillet of Solo, which I think both Julie and Willa, you have performed in and had, you know, different pieces, you know, highlighted. Why do you think storytelling is really – it’s like the thing right now and in a way that it hasn’t been. I mean, Fillet of Solo is, what, over 20 years old, I believe, yet, I have to say, as somebody who thinks they kind of know what’s happening – (laughs) – I had not heard about it probably till – why is everyone laughing? – until the last six or seven years maybe. And so what do you think has happened? Do you think it’s the impact of COVID perhaps that has helped or what is it about storytelling that really – people are just really excited about it and are thoroughly engaged?
Willa? And I knew you were just at a – you presented and participated in a weekend of storytelling, a conference, very different (from the ?) Fillet of Solo, which (is two ?) weekends of performances. You were at a conference.
Willa Taylor: Yeah, that’s right. The storytelling get-together, which Scott Whitehair, who’s a live lit producer here in town and produces several different kinds of storytelling –
Mary Morten: (Inaudible) – tell people what live lit means, for those of us not on the inside?
Willa Taylor: Sure. Live literature. So one of the things that I would say is it’s not so much storytelling that’s happening in the moment but live lit, meaning live literature, live events, where people come and sit and hear somebody tell a story, person to person, in that kind of way, story tell it to an audience. That’s having a moment, because, you know, storytelling – every time you turn on the TV, every time you go to a movie, every time you go to the theater, you know, we tell stories in a variety of ways. This particular connection – and honestly I’m not sure why now things are happening. I think that partly my generous side of me says that it’s because people are – because of COVID and because of the isolation that we all experienced during that time, people are really hungry for personal connection. I certainly know that young people that I work with are desperate to figure out how to engage and interact in the ways that got stilted and stunted during COVID and they haven’t quite caught up with. My more cynical side of me says that a lot of it’s driven by sort of that shiny new thing, right, that corporations have sort of caught on to the idea and it’s all about storytelling. They’re storytelling because that’s the new buzzword, not that they really, A, even understand what it really means but also because it’s just another way of selling whatever it is that they’re trying to sell. And today – (laughs) – I am leaning more into my generous side and believing that people are really, really hungry for that connection, because I do think, honestly, that’s really the bottom line of it.
But I’m really curious, Julie, because you’ve worked in both those realms so much, what do you think?
Julie Ganey: I agree completely. I think people are hungry for connection and I think COVID’s part of it. I think some of the ways that we used to connect we don’t have anymore; we’re somehow busier and less connected than we’ve been in the past. So I also think that storytelling is a really accessible art. You do not have to practice for six years to be a decent storyteller. It’s kind of like pizza in that even if it’s not the best story you’ve ever heard it can be really satisfying and wonderful. And I also think just the power of story, that is a secret that is now out. You can’t listen to NPR for five minutes without hearing the word narrative and I think we have to be careful because society has a tendency to commodify powerful concepts which can drain them of their meaning and their power, and storytelling and stories are too special. So I don’t we should just be using stories for capitalism but it’s almost too special an art form for that ever to happen.
Mary Morten: All right. Well, we’re going to continue this conversation about telling your organization’s story, how you do that with both storytelling and social media. You’re listening to “Gathering Ground,” and we’re back in a moment.
Hi, everyone; thanks so much for joining me on “Gathering Ground.” We want to hear from you. If you have any questions about your work in nonprofits or any of the topics that we've covered here on “Gathering Ground,” send them on in; send them to mary@gatheringgroundpodcast.com. That's mary @ gatheringgroundpodcast — all one word — dot com. We look forward to hearing from you.
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to “Gathering Ground.” My guests today include Terrence Chappell, Julie Ganey, and Willa Taylor. And we’re talking about telling your organization’s story.
And Terrence, we want to come to you with regard to your work with organizations, both nonprofit and for-profits, in terms of how you pull in that personal connection, right? One of the things that Julie mentioned earlier was the ability to really connect with folks, right, and that that is something that storytelling has offered. How do you wrap storytelling into social media so that your particular client-partner story is really connecting with folks on a personal level, because that, at the end of the day, is what’s going to engage someone, is going to perhaps gather someone’s interest around a particular product or concept.
Terrence Chappell: Absolutely. So I – for us – you know, and part of our discovery – then once we get to the strategy prep sessions, we have been doing a lot of work in LinkedIn thought leadership and Instagram. And I always say, in social media you have to educate or entertain. It can no longer be – I remember when I first started working in social media it was very much “look at this pretty picture,” or “look at this product.” It was very much display. And so leaving, like, the experiences of your target audiences into the content I think is helpful. And so, for instance, LinkedIn we know obviously is great for thought leadership. That’s where you have more – like, that professional audience and decision makers. And so for clients you recommend, like, hey, to sustain your credibility, maybe have, like, a long – like, a thought leadership piece that touches one of the topics that you own, that you talk about, that you’re already playing in this game, and so that shows your credibility. Also – and in addition to that, like, layer in some – definitely some data and I always recommend some data with some, like, kind of personal, professional stories with that thought leadership piece, and then you have that living on LinkedIn, right? And then on Instagram, that’s when you have that, I would say, more kind of – you pull those key messages out of that LinkedIn thought leadership piece and then you make an IG reel out of it. And it’s very tactical but I would say, like, whatever the values of your organization are, ensuring that those values are reflected and amplified in that thought leadership piece and your key messages for your IG roll – your IG reel, I mean. And then – and just being consistent about it. And, you know, when I think about storytelling, it’s really always been around because before Twitter it was the grapevine and I think social media has just accelerated and it really has made these stories a lot more accessible to people who wouldn’t know about them otherwise. And so I am fearful – no, I already know what’s going on. I already know, like, corporations are honestly capitalizing off of stories, but there’s a way – people are smart and people don’t want to be pandered to, and so you see those campaigns that have tried doing that. Like, I’m looking at Pepsi who had Kylie Jenner as the face of the movement and it’s like, seriously? And they received a lot of – like, that’s not storytelling; that’s pandering. And so the client partners we work with, we don’t have those issues with. (Laughs.) I think it’s all about, like, again, looking in those strategy prep sessions; what are the values, the focus areas of your organization, and then mobilizing different voices who are – and a lot of times we – you know, we’ve been playing with this word influencer a lot. I more so like to work with prolific voices, right? Like, voices is like when you see someone in content on Instagram and, you know, you set up a geo-targeted campaign where maybe only people in Chicago can see it. It’s like, “Oh, my god, I know him, like, I hung out with him,” or “I know her” or “I know them,” and “Oh, I didn’t know that about them.” And so I think it’s helpful to have – for me, like, not so much influencers, which I think have their place but – so having prolific voices and people who are very active and highly visible because of the work they do in the community and showing them how they’re partnering with this organization to, again, really amplify their mission. So I think it’s a combination of really leaning into the specific usage of that particular platform; again, that thought leadership piece where it will resonate with decision makers and resonate with more of that, I would say, sophisticated business crowd. And then you have your IG reel that’s pulling those key messages out and it’s more fun, it’s more entertaining, and it’s kind of – (inaudible) – each other, and then across that content ensuring that the values of the target audience that you’re looking to reach is reflected in that and how it – because that’s when it’s really organic, right? That’s when it makes sense to be amplifying these stories is because they’re a part of our mission. It’s a disconnect when you’re trying to target a specific audience, versus – you know, I always say your target audience kind of has to choose you. Like, you can choose them and you can choose them and you can market towards them, but if it’s pandering or if it just seems a little off, it’s going to be a disconnect.
Mary Morten: OK. Well, when we think about storytelling with social media, right, which many people can have access to, for Willa and Julie, I’m curious about how we make sure that storytelling, right, and all the various benefits of it gets to communities across the city, right, across the country. How do we make sure that people really have this as a very valuable tool, in so many ways?
Willa, let’s start with you.
Willa Taylor: You know, it’s funny that you mention that because I was just talking with my class this morning about that. We were talking about poverty and how there is not a show about being poor. There are shows about sort of the pathology of poverty, right, and there are shows about sort of up from your bootstraps, like overcoming poverty. But those kinds of shows like “Good Times,” where we just see a family living at a particular economic level, just don’t exist anymore. And one of the things, one of the challenges that one of the students brought up was, you know, when you’re working two or three jobs just to get food on the table and keep the lights on, how do I go into a community and say, you know, you’ve got 15 minutes that you can, like, sort of craft and tell their story. And I think that that’s a challenge, right, but there are ways I think every community has a group, an organization, a Miss Williams, right, who is the woman on the corner who has held the history of that community forever. If you can go into a community and start to identify who those Miss Williams are, who those people are, who everybody respects and everybody knows and get them to tell them a story, that’s one way.
The other way, I think, is something that I really sort of, in more theatrical environments, I would call – devising it, where we get a bunch of people together and we build a show collectively. I think that there are not nearly enough opportunities for people to come together and tell the story of who they are as a community – not one person telling that story, but collectively we all contribute to that story. And so how can we set up story circles? How can we – at churches, at the laundromat? I have a really good friend who does some incredible work, who started Betty’s Daughters and she started at the laundromat because that’s where the Black mothers with little kids always were on Saturday mornings, right? So she just started where people were. And I think that that’s one thing that we need to do. We have these events but we expect everybody to come to us, as opposed to us going to them. And so we think about doing stuff in laundromats, in barber shops, in beauty parlors, where everybody goes, and start organically in that way. That would be one suggestion.
Mary Morten: And Julie, I know you’ve run summer camps and you’ve worked with young people. What are some of your ideas about how we make sure that storytelling is available to many folks?
Julie Ganey: Well, I think Willa has a lot of wisdom about this and, I will just say, has always envisioned and fought for the GeNarrations program at the Goodman Theatre being accessible to everyone from every zip code by being a free program. And I 100 percent believe that program would not be what it is if we started charging for it. There is something that just is welcoming and that’s how we get people from all over the city. So I think Willa is right: going to the places where people are gathering and then valuing those stories. This is how we learn to hold nuance. This is how we learn to listen deeply to other people, is that we hear a story from someone with a completely different background that if you heard a thumbnail sketch of it, you’d say, well, I don’t agree with that at all. And then you hear a story and you start expanding and you start having compassion for that person, right? So it’s not just how do we go and get these stories told, but how do we learn to listen? How do we learn to have the patience to deeply give ourselves over to listening in those moments?
Mary Morten: I think that’s a really critical piece, active listening, right, and making sure that we really are not just waiting for us to say our piece, which is often what happens – “I’m just waiting for you to stop talking so then I can say what I have to say.” And is that something that you work with – work on in your storytelling workshops so that people can practice that? Because, to your point, and this connects to social media, we want to get to the next thing. We want to keep scrolling, essentially. We want to keep scrolling. How do we get people to hold tight for a moment and really hear what is being said? I mean, that just, as a challenge, goes across, you know, every industry, all the kinds of work that we do. Any ideas about that or is that something that you spend some time on in your workshops, for instance?
Willa Taylor: We do. Yeah.
Go ahead, Julie.
Julie Ganey: I was going to say, Willa’s right. We do spend time on that in our workshops – everything from how can we take notes while someone is telling a story to amplify for ourselves and reflect back to that person what has meaning for us, the kinds of questions that we ask when we’re finished – not what did you like, what didn’t you like? It’s, what had meaning? What stood out? What resonated with you? The questions that we ask about stories help people stay there and really make that connection with the teller. And I learned a lot of that from Willa and the different critical response process developed by Liz Lerman, different ways to help us really learn the patience to sit and give ourselves over to listening.
Mary Morten: It’s a practice. It is a practice.
Willa Taylor: It is a practice, one that we don’t practice often enough, I think, in general.
Terrence Chappell: Without an agenda, yeah.
Mary Morten: That’s very true, without an agenda. Absolutely.
And so, Terrence, when you’re thinking about your work, and certainly something we’ve come to understand, is that people are engaged by video online and connecting with folks in a more personal way, which I’m gonna just say is a challenge for me – (laughs) – in terms of just being more open and talking more about, you know, stories and things of that nature. But that is really what connects with people, at the end of the day.
Terrence Chappell: It is.
Mary Morten: And so when you’re doing your work, how are you working with your – you know, your client partners to get them to understand that sometimes seeing behind what is referred to in theater, I think, as a fourth wall is really going to be advantageous for you, right? People really need to understand more about your story than you have been willing to share. How do you get people to – I mean, when we were – you know, you were working with me and we were doing the LinkedIn live piece; there were some things I didn’t want to say and I wasn’t sure about how it was sitting and, you know, all those kinds of things, which you were like, no, it’s fine; let’s go, let’s go. You know, and so how do you work with folks to get them to look behind the fourth wall and to be willing to expose what’s behind the fourth wall?
Terrence Chappell: Absolutely. It makes me think of one of our client partners, BlackRoots Alliance; last year they released this public safety report and, like, what public safety means specifically for Black Chicagoans. And so we went to their event and we were capturing the content. It’s an information campaign; it’s more of, like, you know, directing people to this report. And I found myself getting – and I try not to – I found myself getting really emotional because I was talking to – she’s known as Grandma, right? She’s known as, like, Grandma in the community and, like, for all the reasons of why she’d be known as that. You feel safe with her when you’re talking to her, and she’s sharing with me of how she started the first block club in her neighborhood. I was like, oh, my god, my mom started her first block club in the neighborhood. And then the more people you talk to – like, some people have said public safety to me is just being home; other people it wasn’t home. And then – like, this one guy was describing, like, you know, when you’re smelling – so, like, somebody’s grilling outside and kids – (inaudible). And so, like, all those sensories brings back nostalgia and that was the red thread that we saw across (nobody who we ?) were talking to was that nostalgic feeling. And so – we’re lucky enough – I would say for our business, our client partners who are in the nonprofit sector kind of already get it. Corporations – you know, marketers, they’re not the most creative people. (Laughs.) So we had a – we got a – we always advise this is really not about your product, it’s about the experiences your product creates or, you know, what’s the sustainability arm? And so I always try to go in from the discovery to the prep sessions having a conversation guide, of having, like, a list of questions that we send to them ahead of time, because I think that provides, like, a really good foundation and it helps kind of ground the conversation, and it forces them to – it encourages them to think about some things is because a lot of times, you know, when we’re in these prep sessions, it’s like I don’t want to be the only one that’s talking, because I’m still learning about your business. And so I would definitely say, like, the more you – the more we learn about them and then I – you know, again, centering the people who are closest to your mission or closest to benefiting from your mission of whatever it is and then kind of getting those stories. Like, I would never forget when they were describing, like – (inaudible) – and you smell like the cookout going – like, that just – that, like, brought me back to 1995 and it was just a really, really good feeling is because anyone who kind of grew up – because I’m from the Southwest Side of Chicago; you know exactly what he’s talking about, and, like, not being able to go inside because he’s, like, drinking from the water hose. Like, it was just a really funny conversation and, like, everybody who’s, like, from there completely gets it. And so, at the end of the day, it won’t be accomplished in one video, it won’t be accomplished in one tactic, and I always say social media is about relationship-building, right, and so it’s – things happen over a course of time, but making sure that you’re consistently and having a regular cadence of quality or authentic and organic content that helps overall cultivate those relationships with the community audience and start – (inaudible). I always advise that we give it at least a year; it’s not going to happen in one campaign. But this is part of a larger effort to deepen those relationships.
Mary Morten: Yes, I know it takes a while, which, of course – (laughs) – it’s hard to keep that in mind. But we are seeing – I’m happy to say that we are seeing some absolute improvement with regard to Morten Group social media and our storytelling.
I’m wondering how, when you are in a workshop – for Willa and Julie – how you really get folks to open up. Is it through the exercises that you do? Because people come in, I think – I’m going to assume – in some places, again, like, “This isn’t for me.” I think you said that, Willa, at the very beginning. I’ve said it! I’ve said, I don’t have any stories. I mean, both of you all know, all of you know, I have some stories.
Willa Taylor: (Laughs.)
Mary Morten: (Laughs.) But I’m the (first one ?), “Oh, I don’t have any stories, no one’s going to be interested in my stories.” How do you get people to change that mindset and to really understand that this is about building community, right, and that you in fact do have some stories to tell.
Julie, what are some of your strategies around that?
Julie Ganey: I think it’s really important to help folks learn how to hear each other’s stories and hold each other when they are telling difficult stories. But I personally always start with the idea of play. I think that if you can get human beings involved in an activity that engages them and makes them laugh, our defenses tend to drop. And so I am always starting with games, which sometimes people have a little resistance to games, but I would say 99 percent of the time they are won over, right? And then we start telling stories. And we really do have to help each other understand how we need to be held when we’re telling something that is vulnerable for us. It’s not just about writing great stories or being able to perform it at some great place. It’s about forming a community where folks feel safe enough. We don’t have to agree about things. We don’t all have to come from the same kind of background or have the same likes or dislikes. But in this place we feel very safe and the way we do things is just as important as what we’re doing.
Willa Taylor: Yeah, I completely agree. I think that, you know – I think the first thing that school does, formal schooling does, is to kill the creativity, imagination, and play in every child, right? Because what do you tell them? Sit down, be quiet, keep your hands on the desk, and really only talk when you’re spoken to. And that’s not the way we engage, right? Play is how we learn. If you think about the things that – some of the things that are really crucial to your development as a child growing up, you learn those things by watching people around you, by listening to the stories, and by falling down and then getting back up. And we don’t allow adults to do that kind of play, and so when they do have an opportunity to do that, it’s amazing sort of how freeing that can be for them.
I’m with Julie. I always start with play. I always start with games and very low-stakes games. You know, this is a map of the city of Chicago and I’m standing in the middle of Chicago. Go to a corner where you came from today. And you would be surprised how a prompt that simple starts to generate story and people start telling you things. I know we – especially with young people, one of the favorite ones we use is a spectrum activity: “I believe in love at first sight/I don’t believe in love at first sight.” And you would be surprised – 15- and 16-year-olds – the kind of story that you get from that, right, the story about the first time they saw their kitten, the story about the first time their little brother or sister came home. I mean, it’s just amazing because I think we forget, everybody is a storyteller, right? Everybody tells stories. I can’t tell you the number of stories I told about how the dog ate my homework, right, or why it was that I was coming home late after curfew. We all do that. We share stories all the time. The difference is, how do you craft that story for a particular thing, for a particular reason and for a particular audience? But we all tell stories and if we can continually remind people that we all do this, that there’s no mystery to this, that you each tell stories every day – “Girl, you can’t believe what happened when I was driving home today.” Then people really – some of the anxiety comes off because they don’t have to be perfect; they don’t have to be professional. They just have to be human and share that story.
Mary Morten: Oh, I love that. Just be human.
And how do you – so you talked, Julie, about creating a safe space, and Willa, you talked about how everyone, of course, has a story. As you’re working with groups, what do you think is the average amount of time that you would work with a group of folks to get them ready to tell their stories in a more public environment?
Willa Taylor: Ooh.
Mary Morten: Does it really vary, or is it eight weeks? Is it – you know, I’ve actually gone through Second Stories process and it is – and I really resisted for a while –
Willa Taylor: (Laughs.)
Mary Morten: – because it’s a commitment of three months and I thought, oh, my god, I can never do that. Of course I did and I’m interested in doing it again; I’m just putting that out there. And I actually have a great story, I think. (Laughs.) But yeah, what’s the amount of time? Because people are listening to this and thinking, well, maybe I want to, you know, take a storytelling class and get involved in some way. What kind of commitment do they need?
Julie Ganey: The answer is it varies widely and it has to do with a person’s confidence and a person’s willingness to throw themselves into the process, their facility with performance. I would say that we can get just about anybody on a stage performing a story after six weeks. And I mean anybody.
Mary Morten: Wow.
Julie Ganey: But some people – you know, there are so many storytelling series out there that are asking folks to come up with stories in the moment and tell them, right, or 24-hour story festivals where you write a story in 24 hours and get up and perform it. So I think there are lots of different ways to do it right.
Mary Morten: And I’m just curious: Do you think that that does – does it serve the craft well to have to do something in 24 hours? I mean, I think of it similarly to – oh, I should say as the Food Network and, you know, “You’re going to have to make a meal in 20 minutes and we’re giving you the ingredients right now and go for it.” Are we losing something by those kinds of efforts around storytelling or you think it’s great, throw it all in?
Willa, what do you think about that?
Willa Taylor: It depends on what the goal is, right? If the goal is to get people to share who they are, you don’t need a stage, you don’t need a microphone; you need a dinner table, you need a bar, you need just another person, right, because you’ve got to have a teller and you’ve got to have a listener. And so you can tell a story over dinner, which most people do, right? You go out to dinner and everybody’s got a story. If the goal is to have something that’s really polished and solidly built, that really makes people lean into the telling. You’re going to need about six weeks, I think. You know, six weeks, once a week, maybe a couple of hours every time. I have certainly gotten people to be willing to just take that step and take that leap in four hours, right? That doesn’t mean it’s a well-crafted story, but part of the success is that the person was willing to do it, right, because they might have come in, “I don’t have a story,” “I’ve never told a story,” “I’m afraid to tell a story,” whatever, and just the act of getting up on that stage – I had a – at the story get-together a couple of weekends ago, one of my GeNarrations students was there. She’s been in class with me since 2017. That’s the first time she’s ever told a story outside of our little individual group, right, and I was so proud of her. It wasn’t necessarily that well crafted, but she got up on that stage and that was a huge step for her. You know, we have to sort of celebrate everybody’s milestones. And part of what I really love about Scott Whitehair, again, in his events is every time a storyteller is about to get up, the first thing he says is, “And we’re going to cheer like we’re at the Super Bowl” for that person, and the crowd erupts, right, because that’s part of encouraging somebody just to – it’s a huge leap of vulnerability to get up on a stage and tell a personal story, right? I don’t care how well-crafted or how often you do it. And to be able to be that brave we have to celebrate that bravery.
Mary Morten: Wonderful.
And Terrence, I guess I see your work very much connected to that in terms of getting folks to do something different, to try a different format, a different medium, and I know – certainly, as we started working with you, I thought, OK, we’re going to try some of these things; let’s see how well it goes. We’re putting ourselves out more personally. How do you encourage people to make that move? Because, again, it is about putting yourself out, right, whether you’re telling the story, whether you’re saying I’m gonna – you know, to some degree, certainly talk more about myself or the company on social media. How have you helped people make that transition?
Terrence Chappell: So for us it’s part art, part science, and so I – in our work together, Mary, we ground everything in strategy. So we don’t just want to say it. So we do a – we execute a social media audit of their channels to see, like, what’s working, what’s not working, how can we optimize certain things, and then we look at – you know, for three comparable organizations we do a – we execute a competitive – excuse me, I’m trying to stop saying the word execute because it’s a marketing word but it’s also such a terrible word to use. (Laughs.) We carry out a competitive landscape to look at what other organizations are doing. And so a lot of times – and I think one of the things we advise with Morten Group and other similar organizations is that when you have a very active, like, executive leadership team who’s out there and on LinkedIn, that builds trust with that organization. And so it’s just – you know, we have the data and then we have the analysis and then we then use that analysis to inform that content, the strategy in, like, what we should be caring about. And so, you know, I don’t want to – I set up priorities for clients. We can’t go and do everything. And some are like, you know, how about you do this free thing – let’s do a little intro video. And it came out amazing. It came out perfect. And I’ve been seeing a lot of the content that Vince and your team has been doing and it’s fantastic and I love the fact that Morten Group was doing more of that. And then you have to – it really depends on person-to-person because if you’re working with somebody who is visible and out there you really don’t have to do a whole lot of coaching with them, but if it’s somebody who’s a little bit more, you know – because social media can be scary – (inaudible) – put yourself out there, then we just set up, like, you know, we have a coaching session with them, we have, like, some key talking points, and I never want to provide a script because I think that’s too regimented. Like, here’s some things you should consider including in your video. And then I always try to be there, present, because it helps to have – you know, have a hype man there. And so I think, again, it’s a – the science part of it is like, OK, here’s their audit; here’s a competitive landscape analysis; here’s what other teams are doing and here’s how it’s working for them. This is why we should take the goal in this direction with you and then being a cheerleader; like, come on, you can do it. (Laughs.) And so – and then, again, the more comfortable that person feels and, you know, we do one video; it’s like, oh, then – (inaudible) – let’s do, like, two more videos, and before you know it, they’re just doing them themselves. They have that time and have the – and feel empowered just to capture themselves. And then that’s – we sort of just kind of step in. They say, like, hey, can you take a look at this? If you look at it, it looks great. So, like, really just getting them started and, you know, you can’t rebuild something that’s not there, right, so it’s already in that person; it’s just a matter of kind of helping them tap into that.
Mary Morten: All right.
Well, I love this. Lots of helpful hints, lots of strategies about how to tell your story, whether you’re telling it in person, whether you are telling it on social media. What would you say, as we close, one thing that you would want someone to remember about storytelling, whether it’s on social media or in person? And I’m going to start with you, Willa. One thing that you’d like to share.
Willa Taylor: You have a story. You should share it.
Mary Morten: OK.
Julie?
Julie Ganey: Be brave. And don’t be afraid to tell the truth and be vulnerable. That does not mean overshare – (laughter) – but it does mean being honest. And, you know, sometimes people want to tell a story but they don’t want to talk about, you know, any of their challenges or struggles or mistakes. Every story has tension in it and we can’t celebrate your victories and your triumphs unless we know the struggles that you had to go through to get there, and so that’s part of being vulnerable and telling the truth.
Mary Morten: And Terrence? In thinking about your work, what do you think there’s one thing you would want people to know in terms of sharing their stories on social media and, you know, sharing more of themselves?
Terrence Chappell: Be unapologetic. To your point, Julie, you ain’t got to overshare. We don’t need to know that. (Laughs.) But be unapologetic and ensure that it’s a full narrative, not just one part of the narrative.
Mary Morten: OK. Well, thank you all so much. This really reminds me of Maya Angelou’s quote, which I’ll just paraphrase with regard to you may not remember what people have said but you will absolutely remember how people have, right, made you feel. And I think that’s so important in terms of whether we’re telling a story live, you know, as part of a program, as part of a performance, or we’re on social media. How are we feeling when we see these images, when we hear these stories, right? That’s what’s going to resonate with us far beyond that moment. So thank you again, Julie Ganey, Willa Taylor, and Terrence Chappell. Thank you so much for joining me on “Gathering Ground.”
Thank you again to Willa Taylor, Julie Ganey, and Terrence Chappell for sharing their invaluable insights on the power of storytelling and how all you need is you, your story, and someone to listen. For organizations and companies, crafting a compelling narrative can be an essential tool. More than just sharing information, storytelling is weaving an emotional tapestry that resonates with those around you.
Your story, your organization’s story, has the power to connect with your community on a deeper level, inspire them to join your cause and, ultimately, build a more empathetic world. Storytelling is a powerful tool for fostering change, and by using it effectively, you can truly make a difference.
As you navigate our ever-evolving landscape or even your own growth, keep telling your story, keep inspiring those around you, and keep gathering ground.
I'm Mary Morten. Until next time.